15. Guide to Food Freedom with Katie Barbaro

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Episode 15: Guide to Food Freedom with Katie Barbaro

Katie Kay: Hi Katie! Can you start by giving us a brief intro into your background?

Katie Barbaro: My background, started out, like my interests have kind of spanned, from performing to occupational therapy. That's what I went to school for. And I worked full time as an occupational therapist, especially pediatrics for a while. And I think what drew me to that is what is the thing that is kind of in the through line in my life. I'm just fascinated with, like, how do we, how do we live a meaningful life? Like, what does that even mean? And, you know, discovering new layers of what that could possibly mean, throughout my life has been my journey. That's like, you know, you find these truer and truer truths. And it's like, oh, that's, that's the thing that really resonates with me. And so, you know, using that as kind of the model, it's like, I went from being a full time occupational therapist to realizing, oh, I have these like, latent dreams of being a professional actress, and, you know, performing. So then I moved to New York and did stand up comedy and, and improv and focused on that with more of my full time energy, and then really facing my eating disorder, and actually going into recovery in a way where I wasn't just trying to do it on my own. It was, yeah, like, really getting serious about my recovery was something that opened up my world to a whole new, like, level of truth, that I was like, Oh, this is actually what's most important. And yeah, so I feel like that's the process that I'm continually add, you know, it's a daily. Yeah, yeah, a daily process.

Katie Kay: Can you tell us just a little bit about OT, and what that involves?

Katie Barbaro: Yes. I genuinely also love occupational therapy. And I first came in contact with it, volunteering at a a summer camp for kids who have disabilities or autism. Actually, the place the clinic that I ended up getting my first job, and it was this very for full circle thing where I later became the director of this thing. I was once a volunteer at it, I was like the volunteer coordinator. It's like very, you know, fun. Oh, cool. I've come full circle in the life cycle. But yeah, so I was in college, I went to USC, and I was tempted to major in, in creative writing, and also in theater and all of these things that had so much of my passion in them. And then I was like, Well, I can major in occupational therapy, because that's the one career that like actually necessitates a degree whereas the other things I'm interested in, I kind of made this like inward promise to myself, that I was like, I'm gonna I can go back and do those anytime is the same decision, like or the same thought process that went into my decision to go to USC, which was a school for people listening that aren't from Los Angeles, which may be a lot of people. It's a school, or the University of Southern California. So it was close to where I grew up. And I'd always wanted to go away to college or like, live somewhere else. And so, here I am, like making these big decisions. I'm so indecisive. I was undecided going into college, but I was like, Okay. Yeah, it feels like the right thing to do to go to USC, even though it's close and you major in OT, even though I have these other dreams. But I was like, I promise that I'm going to honor those longings on myself someday. And I did. But I had no idea at the time how or when I would would do that. I was just kind of knew. It was like, this is the right thing to do right now. And there's going to be another right thing to do at another time. And so I'm really grateful for my roots in occupational therapy. And it's something that also informs, you know, right now I do some, like life coaching, and I don't really like the word like life coach. Like, you know, I like to call myself an intuitive guide. It's just something that you know, it's a way has such a dramatic noise.

Yes. Okay. Occupational Therapy. It's a profession dedicated to helping people live more meaningful lives across the lifespan. So there's, it's a confusing career, because there's many ways that you can practice occupational therapy. So a lot of people are familiar with it. in rehab settings, where people who have had strokes or spinal cord injuries or any traumatic injury, basically, or occurrence that has like changed their level of function, an OT will come in and help them with their gaining more independence in activities of daily living and helping them get back to their occupations, which doesn't refer to their job. And it refers to an occupation is any meaningful activity that occupies your time. So brushing your teeth is an occupation. Yeah, recording this, this podcast right now is an occupation.

Yeah. interests. I love that framing. And so I worked in pediatrics mostly, and that's working with kids who have it really, it really can vary because there's, without being too, going too much into it. But like, basically, there's early intervention, for kids who are usually born with developmental delays, or early signs of autism, or just anything that where they might need extra support in order to fully engage in the occupation of being a child, which often involves play, and, you know, being able to communicate with their peers and adults and just be a thriving happy child. So, and it also is something that I worked in a school setting as well. So when kids go to school, it's like how they can participate in their school environment and effectively be able to learn and just participate in their world. So it's very much like function based. And we also can work with adults on helping them come into greater alignment in their lives. And it's like looking at, if your lifestyle is not producing, you know, a state of inner peace and flow. There are ways to look at your occupations. There's a way to like look at how you're engaging with life and like what your values are and how you're implementing those values, how that's reflected in your daily occupations, your daily activities, to create your quality of life. So that's a major lens that I use when I work with people, coaching them through whatever their whatever they're going through.

Katie Kay: Do you feel like maybe going into the acting and the things that you love and something that was more passionate for you would have been a better route? Or maybe not? Maybe you needed to go through that schooling first, to really go through that process? What do you think? What do you think about that journey for yourself?

Katie Barbaro: Yeah, that's such a great question. And I'm asking myself how to answer this, because on the one hand, I, it would be, like, silly to say that anything in my life should have been different, because it was all exactly what I needed. And so, um, but maybe not necessarily, for the reasons that I did it at the time, right. Like, I didn't have the understanding of why it was important for me to go through the process of majoring in OT and getting my master's right away. And, you know, I, there were some things I had to work through in myself, like fears that I had about my own abilities to really step into my light and be, you know, an artist or be be myself, a professional I like, that's kind of how I see it, you know, how Oprah's like herself, but professionally, I'm like, that's kind of the dream, right? But they're, um, yeah, like, so just to, like, kind of really zoom out. And in a more cerebral sense, like, there's, we're all here working through whatever karma we have, you know, and like I had, and, you know, I'm still working through a lot of this, like, imposter syndrome. And this, like, fear of really stepping into my own power. And, you know, majoring in ot wasn't entirely a fear based decision, but there were aspects of it that that were. And so yeah, it's interesting, it's like, the cool thing about it is that we're here to like, work through these, whatever, whatever conditions we have around are our true selves, right? Like if we think of our soul, or our like, our pure nature is like this inner seed, and we kind of have this casing around it. And we need to break through that in some way. And there's literally no wrong way to do it. Right? Like, could have done it by just being like, No, I'm putting all my eggs in this theater basket, and I'm getting few nurtures no matter what. And then like, great, all my insecurities would pop up through that, like, whatever, whatever needs to pop up and be worked through is going to happen no matter what, which is late. So funny. Like, you know, if I'm in a relationship that I don't like, and then I'm like, Oh, this is terrible. I'm going to get out of it. And then I get into another one. And it's the same stuff that just crops up. So that's kind of how I see life in general, like we can't hide from ourselves. So whatever path we take is going to be the exact path we've we need. Even if it seems to be like a detour from the real, the real purpose. That's like, no, the detour is part of the purpose. There's no way to get there's no way to do this wrong. Yeah.

Katie Kay: How did these transitions in your life show up in your body?

Katie Barbaro: And it's interesting, because in several in many phases of my journey, I was so disconnected from my body. So it's really interesting, though the body is is the wisest vessel in the world. And we're just like, Oh, my God, like, I'm just astounded by the ways my body communicates with me and adjusts to whatever environment I'm in. And, yeah, when my, when I go through a big transition, it's so disruptive, it's very dysregulated for my nervous system. And at the same time, like, being able to move through that dysregulation with like some just loving presence. And awareness is usually the thing that I the exact thing that I need. Right? So it's like, it's been going through a big transition. And I've gone through a lot of these, like, I don't know if I've talked to you about this before. So this is a fun, podcast reveal. But in 2018, when I was about, like two years into my recovery, I decided I started working with a life coach. And I realized, like, based on what my values are, what would be the most exciting thing to do next, and I ended up solo traveling through Europe and Asia for about a year. And became, and that was a, that was non stop. Oh, my God, major life transitions. And it was like, putting myself through those transitions and those huge upheavals of like, massive Nervous System discomfort. It was like, it's, it's interesting, like, there's kind of a sweet spot. And I'm okay, I'm gonna misquote this completely, probably, but you probably know about polyvagal theory. And yes, so I'm gonna think and you can correct me when I say this wrong. But there's kind of the sweet spot where it's not spiking, where you're like, if you're in kind of the danger zone of like, nervous system dysregulation. It's like, oh, emergency, I just need to, like, you know, get safe flight fight. Yes, exactly. But it's like, there's also this, there's this really sweet zone, where it's like, Hey, I'm actually safe. Even though I don't feel safe, I'm actually safe. And it brings more safety into those spikes or into those moments of feeling fighter flight, but knowing that I'm not in a dangerous situation. So that's like, I feel like a lot of this journey has been about just expanding my nervous system's capacity to accommodate intensity. And that's what we're all doing in order to come into a state of more safety and peace in our lives, no matter what it is, like, we can have whatever whatever journey we're on wherever our our consciousness or ego thinks that we're unsafe going through experiences that actually like makes us feel like oh, that's, it's not so scary, you know, like developing bulimia was this. It I feel like it came from this huge fear of actually basing my life Honestly, I was like, I can't, I can't feel that there was something there was just so much fear that I had. And it's hard to pinpoint it right, like, trying to understand it intellectually. Feels silly, right. But seeing and it's just part of this journey to a to expand my nervous systems capacity, I can see my growth through that.

Katie Kay: So insightful. And we're in an anxious stress system, we can have tools to allow ourselves to be okay, when it is a little uncomfortable to bring us back into that balance. I really love how you said that, because there's a lot of times where, and just recently, I went through having COVID and different health stuff. And there was, you know, a period of time where I just felt really unsafe, and my body and I did have a really high anxiety. And just the simple way of saying I am safe, my body safe, my mind is safe. Like that can be very powerful. And I actually did a meditation from Gabby Bernstein. I love her. But she did that exact same thing, I am safe in my body, I'm safe in my mind. And it completely transformed how I was feeling that day. So I just I love how you related that to the nervous system. And to that state of balance. That can be a very valuable tool for anybody to use on any given day. And especially in times in our lives where we're feeling uncomfortable or pushing our own limits. I would love to dive into “saying that there's something that you couldn't feel there's something that you wouldn't allow yourself to feel”. And maybe it was a part of you or some deeper truth that you just weren't ready to face? And I know, I have definitely been through that many times. But I would love to dive into that a little bit deeper. And maybe we can dive into the eating disorder. And and Katie, has written this amazing book called the fed up. And I would love to hear that as well.

Katie Barbaro: Yeah, I think a big factor like there's there's so much happening culturally that encourages ignoring our inner state and ignoring our needs like so that many times people don't even know what their needs are and I Myself included and so, I just have so much compassion for myself having gone through you know, the kind of like the feeling of I cannot feel this this is not okay like because our culture prioritizes like, suck it up do it. You know, we have a very tight a capitalist culture and diet culture is part of that. It's like this very It's Yeah, it kind of glamorizes whatever ideals we have. And it doesn't account for any individual experiences. And it kind of gives us a way of, of I say this in the book, but a way of hating ourselves and, or like a way of it gives us an excuse to hate ourselves in a way that feels productive, basically. So it's like, it gives us an outlet for these really intense experiences, we might be having these feelings that are not necessarily like accepted in society, or at least in the ways that we might have been brought up or whatever. It's like, it's not nice to be angry. It's not nice to be sad. It's not so nice, like, be happy, you should smile, whatever, whatever we've been told. It's like, Oh, yeah, I should, I should have everything together. I'm going to pretend like I do. it's the pretending that that's so painful. It's not the the actual sadness, that's just a feeling I can move through us. But when we're stifling our feelings, that creates trauma and stuck energy in the body. And so when we're constantly doing that, it's it's just like, so debilitating. And so I know, kind of I'm jumping everywhere around. But it's not a strict podcast.

Yeah. Yes. It was, like, just talk about this stuff. We're doing? Um, yes. So, um, yeah, when it comes to, like, I guess the ways that diet culture plays out, or for me, I had this like, obsession with losing weight, because I, I started to do it. And then I felt the sense of control. And it because it worked. It worked for a little bit, you know, restricting my calories, I got to my goal weight, I ran a half marathon. And I felt genuinely confident and good, like it was. But I was mistakenly thinking that that newfound confidence came from weight loss. And it really came from keeping promises to myself, it really came from, like, being mindful around food, it was great at first, but then I became addicted to losing weight. And it was this way, I kept trying to fill the hole inside of me with this weight loss, where it's like, my goal weight was never was no longer satisfying. And so in my mind, I was like, well, it must not be low enough, let's lower lower it by five pounds. And I basically, you know, and I also this, this coincided with a big breakup that I went through, which created a lot of emotional upheaval. And that made me face a lot of really uncomfortable feelings inside of me. Just all of my fears, you know, I had a really I yeah, I just saw my life going in a certain direction. I was like, ready to marry and have babies with this man who then cheated on me. And, you know, it was all meant to happen as it was, you know, like, I'm actually, that's probably something that I'm the most grateful for that experience. But it it was not something I was grateful for at the time. But it, it was it put me in touch with this intense aliveness that I hadn't felt before then. And I didn't know what to do with it at first. And so it, it played a really destructive role in my life, because there were things that needed to be destroyed inside of me. And so my, my kind of obsession with dieting, which I didn't see as a problem escalated into bulimia during that period of really tough uncertainty and fear and trying to have everything under control, but not right. So it was this very physical manifestation of that lack of control. And so it was, yeah, it was just the way that I had to move through that. And for a long time, I tried to approach it, how I approached everything and have it under control. Like I tried to, like made myself some sticker charts. And, you know, I was convinced I could fix myself, I went to therapy, and I was like, she doesn't get me this isn't gonna work. And it was like, I was totally just trying to white knuckle it and do it on my own. Like, Oh, I got myself into this mess. I totally blamed myself. You know, which diet culture really, like encourages us to do it's it's quite a hamster wheel of just beating ourselves up and getting it's interesting to see it as a way for our Like the darker tones of our emotions to play out. That's like kind of how it felt like I was, it really is like being brainwashed by a cult like it is, you're under this illusion, that the reason why I feel so, so bad is because I have a tummy roll. The reason why I feel this discomfort is because, like my, I have a double chin at this angle. Like it's, it is visceral, though, it's because feelings are visceral, they're in our bodies, and I so strongly associated it with with like fatness and that being wrong. So part of diet culture is this weight stigma and fat phobia. That is often times just ingrained into us until we realize like, oh, whoa, that's like neutralizing fat bodies. It's was like a huge part of my recovery. I'm like, Oh, the thing that I've been like, so afraid of like, that's not even a bad thing. Right? It's so it's like a mind or there's so many layers of this. Which brings me to your other question. And I was like, going through this process of recovery and seeing through every single layer of bullshit that was laid onto me, I was like, I can't just do this and then be quiet about it. I was like, this is this. I had no choice but to write this book, honestly, like, it's just. And it's not really, I'm not trying to preach to anybody about the way things are. But this is the way things were for me. This was my, like, the layers of my consciousness that I needed to pierce through and see how ridiculous they are. And it's, you know, and the reason I like the whole book is handwritten, and it's full of cartoons. And it's like, because, I mean, I have to have a sense of humor, looking at this stuff, because it's all of this insanity. Like it is actual insanity. I feel like when you can laugh at something, is when you can really see the, like the truth behind it. Like, I feel like the truth is something that usually makes me laugh or cry. And then I'm like, Okay, then I know it's true. Like if I, if I get to that, that state of resonance, where I'm like, Oh, yeah, you can just like feel it.

Katie Kay: Your Book & Diet Culture.

Katie Barbaro: And thank you so much for your kind words about the book, it makes me really light up to hear that it resonates with you. And, yeah, when it comes to diet culture, it's important to talk about what we mean by diet culture, I think it's like a, at this point, for me, it's one of those blanket phrases that gets thrown around and then yeah, it's like, if it's not, it's kind of nebulous and not really defined. It's, it's a reflection of our societal values. And the just anything, it's, it's so subtle. So it can kind of creep into wellness culture, it comes disguised as many things. But it's also I should mention, like, it's well meaning, you know, and, and, also, if people are, are doing something like on a diet or trying to change their body or losing weight, like that's not, this isn't something to like bash people about, like, everyone is doing their best, truly, you know, and at certain points in my life, being on a diet was me doing my best to love myself. And I really believe that everybody's doing that on a certain level. And it's when that kind of gets out of hand and becomes an addiction, that it becomes really unhealthy, or it's good to really examine whether the things we're doing is producing genuine well being or if it's producing a, just a lot of stress and a lot of distortions. So when it comes to Yeah, so the when it comes to the way diet culture plays out, I mean, you can kind of correlate this with like the patriarchy we're keeping, like, literally, it's implanting these ideas into women's head, like, I need to be smaller. It's like we're, you don't even have to make us be small. We're like literally going around programmed to be like, I need to get smaller. And he's like, I need to go, I need to go workout Oh, man, I need to, oh, I ate 300 calories for, for for breakfast, I better I better go work that out right now. And it's just this insane. Like this, I'm speaking from my own experience, right, I had this insane mental loop where like, 80% of my brain capacity was devoted to like, calculating how much how many calories I had coming in and out in a day, it's like this insane way to focus our energy. And when we're doing that we can't be our fruitful, productive selves. I mean, not in productive in a beautiful flourishing way. We're not going to be flourishing if we're obsessed with, like, the way that our thighs rub together. Like it's just your it's just yet totally irrelevant. And at the same time, if that if someone's listening to this, I'm like, Fuck, that's where I am. Oh, man, I didn't mean to listen, it's explicit. Like, trust me, if you're if you're under, if you're in the throes of diet culture, it's not your fault. And there's a way out every, every moment is a way out. And that's what I've learned through my recovery. It's like, I don't have to, it's not about changing what is. It's about getting really honest about what is like, what is actually happening in this moment. Do I want to be do I really want to be calculating my macros right now? Is that what is that aligned with my values? Is that bringing me joy and excitement? And if it is great, keep it up. If it's, if it's not great, you know more about yourself. Now, you know, if it's, this whole process is not so much about following a set of rules, that's actually more diet culture. It's following this external set of rules. What recovery is about and just coming into your own personal sovereignty is about is tuning back in to your intuition, following your inner guidance. And noticing where you're not doing that is the perfect pathway back to doing it. So there's no wrong way to go about this. Just like there's no wrong way about to go about anything, but like this can start in this moment. If you just want to get curious about your motivation behind certain choices. Because for me, at certain points in my life going to a yoga class was punishment going to like I would do back to back like hot yoga classes, and barely, or just whatever I was doing. It was like a way of punishing myself, even though there was also something really beautiful in it. But it's all about the motivation behind it, what are my thoughts, right? I'm going to get curious about my thoughts. When I'm going into this practice. Whatever it is, and, you know, at a certain point running was really empowering for me. And then, it became a tool to abuse myself. And so it was, you know, and now I'm at the point where I don't run very often, but if I do, it's because I want to write, and if I go to yoga, it's because I want to, and it feels good for my body. But I had to go through a period where I didn't do that for a long time, because I was like, oh, I've got some shady motivations going on here. I need to be aware. And yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't have to be an overnight thing. It's just a moment by moment. Experience.

Katie Kay: This moment having an awakened moment where you feel really alive. Can you give us a little insight into what that looked like for you?

Katie Barbaro: Oh, yeah, well, I looked like a big cup of coffee and a six hour drive home where I caught I called like every person in my life that I loved and was like how late Is it okay for me to call you back because I'm going to be on the phone with loving supportive people the whole way home and then I got home and my apartment was covered with empowering Katie site like Rosie the Riveter with my face on it that my roommates made for me it was like, I couldn't have been more I felt so loved and supported and at the same time, like so terrified of being alone. And it was like living in the void because I was just like, I do not actually know what's going to happen next. Like I did not know it was like a complete system override. Everything's different now. I like the next day I woke up and like, I guess I'll finish some arts and crafts projects that have been sitting in my closet. Like I literally just yeah, I didn't know what to do with myself. I kind of I was like being in an emergency situation. I was like, Okay, oh, okay. The parachute. Okay, I got to do that. And then I got it. You know, it was like I kind of vaguely knew about these tools and like, I guess it's Time to start trying them like I had done the artists way by Julia Cameron. Yeah, have that book. Oh my god that life changing. I probably I've recommended it to pretty much everybody I know. So if you're listening to this, I recommend it to you too. I'll put it in the show notes. Okay, good. Yes. Also get my book but also just joking. Obviously, your book will be first and then Julia and Julia Julia can go for it. She's, she's a queen, and I love her and yeah, so I was like, Okay, well, would Julia do here?

Yeah, was not an overnight thing. But I definitely had visions of it being that way. I was like, great. I kind of knew where I was going. But man, did it take me a lot of trial and error to get there. I was like, Oh, cool. This is gonna be the thing that makes me like, live my own empowered, like confident self life and have a creative blossoming career, and you blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then finally, maybe I'll move to New York and do all this stuff. But then slugging through it was like, all of these detours with bulimia and with my, yeah, just a lot of self doubt coming up. And it was just, what's your question about this?

Yep. Okay. I'm just like, I just like had a little, I get my answering what you asked, you can just flow through it. But I was just asking about that moment that you're feeling really alive. And alive. Yeah. It was I, I talked about this in the book, too. It really felt like, I mean, it was, it was like an experience of deep grief. Which made me feel in certain stages of it felt, I just felt more alive than I ever had. And it reminded me of when I was in high school, and a really good friend of mine passed away suddenly, overnight. We don't To this day, no idea why I was like, what people can just die. And it was, you know, I just like cried for a week, I felt so depleted and like, Oh my god, what is what is this, I faced this very, like, crazy reality. And I also remember feeling like I had never felt so connected to the people, my classmates, my community, my own my own, like, source of truth, like I could, you know, I felt so moved to write and to, like, share this truth inside of me with other people. And it was just like, I was vibrating with something that was so real. I just knew it was real, because of how it felt. And so it was one of those experiences like this, this breakup kind of watershed moment, was just something that put me back in touch with like, Whoa, okay, I can feel the truth now. And that's a huge gift. To be in touch with the truth. Yes, it's usually a lot deeper than our, our interactions allow us to be. But the more we become, this goes back to the nervous system, the more we can create safety and that depth, and in that, like raw realness that like, really potent, and just piercing truth, that's here in every moment, but we have a lot of coping mechanisms to avoid it in normal, you know, interactions or scenarios, but yeah, it's like, I feel like that's what it was. It was like an entry point into that. And then it leaves me remember, it's this whole process of like, remembering and forgetting that we are going through our whole lives. Yeah, like remembering who we are. And then kind of forgetting again, coming back down some experience brings us down into that deep remembrance.

Right, that deeper truth and that vibrational energy. I love how you explain that like that, because that's definitely what I have felt before. It's just different. It's just a different energy. I can't say it feels like good or bad, just yeah, different and how you said it was a little terrifying to bat can be a big point of when like, you're transitioning your life and truth can be really scary. Like truth can be the thing that we don't really want to face. Right and it's a lot easier to distract ourselves. Whether it's with the diets or with wanting to lose weight, and I have found that for me is that was a bit distraction for me to have purpose and meaning in my life. Yes, losing weight.

Katie Kay: Totally. Yeah. It's like, oh, finally I've got I have something to live for. And I'm good at it, I did a good job or I did a bad job. But it gives you a focus a goal, right that controlling Yeah, meaning control, and you think it's truth. But really, that's what you're avoiding. And I'm not saying that, like you are avoiding, like our listeners. But just, for me personally, looking back, that's what I was personally avoiding was just like, trying to figure myself out and not put myself in this perfect bubble of, I'm going to be successful, and I'm gonna be at this weight that makes me likable to everybody else, and it's gonna just be the perfect life. And I'm going to be in total control. That was what I thought I was moving towards. So obviously, my motivation, it's not a bad thing. Like, I can totally look back and give Katie or Katie, some forgiveness for that. But I was avoiding a lot of truths. And I'm okay with, you know, I'm okay with that. Like, it's okay. Sometimes it is just like, a very terrifying thing to dig in a little bit deep. And sometimes we're not ready for it. And bringing up that thing that you've said at the beginning about being safe, and that safety, you know, I am safe in my body, I am safe right now. Like, I am, okay, I don't need to protect myself. And that first step can really allow our nervous system to be at that baseline at that balance. So maybe one day, we are ready for something a little bit more meaningful or uncomfortable, or something that pushes us to discover a deeper truth. So I don't know where I was going with that.

Katie Barbaro: But well, I love that you're talking about you're highlighting something that I think is really important to look at. And it has to do with our motivation. Like, everything that we do, is motivated by self love, even when it feels like we're very far from it. Right. So, our, the way our, our nervous system is wired, the way our ego is constructed, our ego was constructed, because it's trying to give our make sure that we are loved and taken care of. And so one of the main motivations, you're like, I'm going to get to a weight that people are gonna like me at, I'm going to be loved by my community. The reason we're afraid of truth is not because truth is scary truth feels like nectar, when we're really in it. It's that if we are aligning ourselves with truth, what is that going to mean about my relationships, and all of these people, I'm surrounded by who are afraid of that? If I am speaking, only the truth, how many people am I going to alienate or alienate? Am I going to be, you know, excommunicated from my tribe? Am I going to it's like I would rather belong than be truthful. You know, in some states, right. And it's interesting to kind of see that, and then it makes you wonder, Oh, do I actually do I want to be accepted by people who don't want to hear my truth? Is that my priority? Who am I going to what am I going to prioritize? And then, if we see, there might be like, a little bit of a logical fallacy here, you know? It's just about, okay, my, my priority is now being honest with myself being true to myself. And that's the belonging that I've been craving. That's the belonging I've been looking for in others. But really, when I find it in myself, take it or leave it if other people like me. Yeah, the right people are going to gravitate towards me. Right? And that's something I'm still learning, especially as I'm putting this book out into the world, I really have to let go of how people feel about it. Great, if it resonates great, if it doesn't, it's just like, Okay, this is this is my truth. And I can't be here to like, micromanage how it's received.

Katie Kay: Why is that such a big deal for us to care so much about what other people think?

Katie Barbaro: It gives us like this whole I mean, the closest that we come to source or God or whatever we want to call the universe that feeling of like universal love and well being. We find that through other people often first, right? So it can feel if someone doesn't like us, it can feel like God is rejecting us like, like the universe's is shutting us down. So when it's natural, right, it's natural to go through that process of being under that illusion, being in that state of distortion, where we think other people hold my connection to source to love to whatever you want to call it. But the truth is that that is available within us. And so really, you know, it's a process of really getting intimate with ourselves. And come in, do you know, just like, doing whatever it takes to get in touch with our deepest truth with our core beliefs, our core, whatever that is, and without needing it to involve other people, but it often does, it's, you know, I, the flip side of this is that people are a gateway to God and to this love that we're all eternally surrounded by, you know, if I didn't have loving people who loved themselves in my life, I wouldn't learn how to love myself like this. And I would, my greatest hope is that I could possibly show someone else how to connect with themselves more deeply. Right, right, but I can't be attached. If I'm attached to that being an outcome of my interaction with someone, then it kind of distorts it, right? So there's, Pete, we're both like, huge, deeply human, right, where it's like, I can't get away from having an ego, I can't get away from like, having these like, I want people to like me, you know, that's just floating around there. But it's like being able to see or see that from a different state of awareness, and choose choosing where to come from in interactions, right? Like, okay, I can observe that, like, there's part of me that just wants people to, like me, like, I'm on this podcast, I would love I would love if you're, if you're listening, I would love for you to like, but at the same time, I really I'm truer truth is that I want you to follow whatever resonates for you, right? Because that's what's most important, right.

Katie Kay: And I feel like for me, and probably, for a lot of people, too, it's like, I just feel really insecure a lot of the time. So it's just like, I'm reaching for a way out of that. It's like I'm reaching for some sort of confidence, self confidence. And I think, when I was trying to so hardly lose weight and control my eating, it was like, a way I could feel that self confidence. And so it kind of was shown outward as, like wanting other people to like me kind of this external validation. But really, I think it was an internal dilemma I was having with myself with not being confident in who I was. And I think really, I didn't know too much of who I was. So I was really unsure and really indecisive. And it wasn't until I really started to realize that I could choose, you know, I could choose what I was doing with my life, I could choose to follow a certain path like that was 100% up to me, like, you know, sorry, parents, sorry, friends, sorry, whoever, but it was really my choice. And it was and that was a really empowering because, like, isn't that so silly to think like, before, like, you don't even think you have a choice. And like, it's your life, right? It's your life. So it's just, it's like, looking back. It's just mind boggling. And I love how we're just like getting in deep like talking about all of these things. Because I think it's just like a very, very common that we all at some point, we're really just unsure of how we should be and what we should be doing and how we should feel. And until we really discover like, yeah, like, this is my own life and people it seems like people are controlling it. But what if, you know, what if they weren't like, what if I could decide for myself and that's a that's just a hard part. Like it's a hard thing because caring what other people think like, especially people you love, like that's a really hard thing to come across. But if they really love you, then they're gonna love you no matter what you do or what you say or it's unconditional right? And so you kind of have to find that unconditional love with yourself as well. Can you talk a little bit about your Recovery out of your eating disorder? And what was that process for you? Like? How did that all start? And where did it really lead you to? Sure, yes. So

Katie Barbaro: I thought I was in recovery. And I, I guess I was, I should say, for me, I feel like recovery is just choosing to be in recovery, choosing to listen to what is most loving for for me, right? Like, I'm like, I'm gonna prioritize that. And it doesn't mean doing it perfectly. That's something I've had to learn in recovery is like, it's not about it's really not about getting anywhere. It's just an orientation to life. Like, I'm gonna move towards my, my joy and my expansion and my, and listening to the voice of love, rather than the voice of self deceit or whatever my disorder, whatever we want to call that self sabotage your voice. I would say one of my biggest recovery experiences like I moved to I moved from Los Angeles to New York to pursue acting and comedy in 2015. And I felt like I was like, I did it, I recovered. I haven't been haven't been making myself throw up. This is great. I was still, I was still though, like, really heavily, just being very rigid about food. But it worked. It worked. For me, it was like it was it felt like I was had it under control, as you said, right. But it was kind of just putting a plug in the jug. It is certain I had a week or two that felt very, it was like my routine that I had down pat there was jumbled up. My boyfriend at the time, family came and visited us and then taking us out to eat all the time and other friends come to visit, which was so fun on one hand, and on the other hand, I was like, Where did my recover Rico, and all of a sudden, I was back to some beliefs by behaviors. And that's what kind of set off this alert. In my mind. I was like, Okay, I can't deny that I'm in denial. I've been in denial about this. And that week, I was writing with a friend we were writing stand up. And I just mentioned, I was like, Oh, yeah, the jokes I'm writing. I'm working on some jokes about my eating disorder. And she's like, Oh, are you in a way? And I was like, What is I have never heard of that in my life. And this was right, what I've been googling outpatient treatments and stuff like that. And I was like, Oh, my God, everything here is like the most expensive thing in the world. Like, is my recovery worth it? Like what? But I kind of knew I had to do something. And then this angel woman comes up and is just like, have you heard of this? And it was called Overeaters Anonymous. And it's a support group, much, much like Alcoholics Anonymous, it's based on a big book, the same one from that. I'm like, Am I allowed to be on anonymous here? I talk about it in the book. So I feel not totally your choice. I'm not here to endorse the program. I'm just here to tell you, I did it. And although I will say participating in any program, like that is still 100% an individual journey and what you take from it, you know, one thing that they say in the rooms is like, take what works and leave the rest. And that's what I believe, across the board. You know, it's not about this is my I have to attribute all of my recovery to this program. But this was the first time I was in a room of people where I could tell them the insane things I would do with food and the insane thoughts, I would think. And they didn't bat an eye, like it was, it was the most like liberating. Oh my god, I felt like I could just exhale for the first time in years where I didn't have to hide myself anymore. I didn't have to feel so much shame around this. And it's such a common thing. I was one of the another reason why I wrote the book is I was like, I don't want this to be something that I just share with strangers in rooms that, you know, understand, because they've been through the same thing themselves. You know, like, basically, I was like, if I'm willing to not be anonymous, I want to be as not anonymous as possible because the shame around eating disorders and any mental mental health structure is so debilitating, like one of the most debilitating parts of this was like strep throat where you could go to the doctor and like get treatment for it. Just because it's like, that's not my fault that I have strep throat. I just have this thing. You know, that would be so healing in the eating disorder world, but it's one of the most like covert disorders because so many people are trying to fix it themselves like I was for years and I, you know, do it, you don't have to do it alone. And you don't have to be quiet about it. It's not your fault. And it's not even anybody's fault. It's just it's just a thing that's happened. It's an experience of going through and it's very common doesn't mean that we we should normalize it like it's been normalized by diet culture where a lot of disordered eating patterns are normalized, so that people don't even realize that there's something off. But just normalize getting help and support. And it's so comment, I think something like this is, I don't know if we can call this a stat, because I have no idea what I'm quoting. But I've heard that like, one in four, four people in the United States struggles with some sort of disordered eating, or having at least a weird relationship with food, for sure. I mean, I can imagine it's like more than that. I can't imagine that person can have just a completely normal relationship with food going off of diet culture. But you know, there's probably people out there, but that's just my opinion. Yeah, it's true. I mean, I loved the book, Women Food and God by Geneen Roth. Outstanding, outstanding. And I just want to say one thing about that book, if the word God throws you off, don't let it it's not about religion. It's what Katie was saying, you know, whatever you want to call it the universe. Sometimes I like to just think of it as nature, like if you think of something a little bit bigger than yourself. Like, think about nature, like the mountains and the trees and every living being on this universe. I think people should be like, living their truth and live with whatever like they believe so like, I think mmost people are very understanding of that. But some people are very nervous of religion. But yes, so basically one of the things that she says so beautifully in the book and that I've really found to be true in life is that food is a mirror our relationship with food is our a mirror to our relationship with life. our beliefs about food shows us how we're believing how we believe life is. So if I think that I'm not going to have enough and I need to eat everything here, even though I'm not hungry, it's like that's, that's a mirror for my relationship with life or, and or with God. Like, I feel like I'm not getting enough. I feel like I'm not. Or I feel like I need to rigidly control everything I put into my mouth. It's like, Oh, I'm having. Yeah, just the belief that I need to be rigidly controlling other aspects of life to Yeah, exactly. Emotional.

Katie Kay: What I got out of the book, I got my emotional connection with food was a lot about control, and a lot about safety. So like, if I was feeling really anxious or stressed out, like, I would reach towards food. And I'm not saying that's bad all the time, I still emotionally and I'm totally fine with it. But in the moments that it really wasn't serving me, and that's not how I wanted to approach my food. It gave me a lot of clarity. And sometimes like clarity, can just be so powerful, you don't even need to do anything, you just read a book and get a little bit of clarity, and that can really change your behavior. And I just I love that like having that truth. But I did start to approach my food differently. And even say the mantra like “I love my food, my food loves me”. And like have that connection to it. Like it might sound silly. But then I started looking at it as a way of nourishment. And so maybe it was nourishing my emotions that day. And that was okay, like I needed that. But like most of the time, it's just like, it's a food. Like, it's a thing that can really nourish my body and keep me alive and grateful to live another day. And so that book I highly recommend, and you know, you can listen to audio or whatever, audio book or read it, but yeah, very powerful.

Katie Barbaro: I love that. I love that mantra, I love my food. And my food loves me. It's like, you're charging your food up with love. And like, it's true. Like how we feel when we're eating is actually what we're eating. If we're stressed out around eating experiences, like a lot of this is such a side note, but it's like such a, it's it's really real. If I was super anxious, around every meal time. I would often have like gastrointestinal issues, but it's not coming from the food. It's like, Oh, I must be I must be gluten intolerant. It's like, No, I'm actually anxiety intolerant. Like I'm, I'm in, I'm charging my food with those thoughts that I'm having about, like, I shouldn't be eating this. I shouldn't be doing this. Instead of I love like, I'm so excited. I'm so excited to eat this carrot cake. I'm so excited to whatever it's like, that's the emotion that I'm eating.

Yeah. And it's like finding whatever feels authentic in the moment. Like, it may be like, I want to love my food. If that's what's authentic, beautiful, you know, it's like, it doesn't have the same thing with gratitude, right? It's like, I'm so grateful for everything in my life. Like, I'm not like being forced at gunpoint to be grateful here, either. You're just like, oh, man, I wish I was more grateful for my life right now. Or I'm grateful for you know, whatever it is that feels authentic. Like, that's the entry point into. Yeah, into really anchoring that in, in a true way. Yeah, if it's not true, it doesn't matter. You can do all the all the affirmations in the world. And if it doesn't ring true, it's just, you know, whatever's whatever's true for you really, really matters, like, and learning to prioritize that over having a certain set of answers. Like, Oh, I love myself, that's great. We would love for you to love yourself. But if that's not where you're at right now, that's okay, too. Right? Getting honest with where we're at is like is just such an important part of the process.

Katie Kay: Yeah. And I saw that theme throughout your book to the truth, and I and just being where you are at and the acceptance and all of those wonderful messages. have compassion and non judgment are just like trickle through your buck like little notes of love. And I just Yeah, I just am so grateful that you wrote that and I think can just be very powerful. And, and not in a way of you telling people what to do. Like, that's what I love most about it. It's like nurturing them to be authentic at whatever state they are and whoever they are. And that's really, really cool. And, and I can imagine really hard to do as well. Like, much easier to be like, this is the way you do it step ABC. And then here's your results. Yeah, so I'm just I'm so grateful that you wrote that book and takes a lot of courage to do that, and in a way that's authentic to and makes people feel very unique in themselves and their relationship to food. And, and so definitely 100% preorder the book right is right now pre ordering on your website. And I'll put all of this information on the show notes. Can you give us a little, just a little bit more into the book as far as your intuitive, so it kind of it transforms through your telling your story, and then your recovery? And so maybe give us a little bit more insight into the book and what to expect if somebody did want to purchase it.

Katie Barbaro: Yeah. So I love that you picked up that I'm not telling anyone what to do, I was I was kind of debating at first to make it like a workbook style. And I was like, No, I just want to, I'm just going to tell my story. But in a way where I'm having radical self compassion for every stage of my journey. And I think one of the takeaways is like, recovery is a journey. This is not a one stop shop, fixing everything. It's not about fixing anything. I just wanted to be really honest about what it was like for me to go through the process of developing an eating disorder, when I was in massive denial about having any kind of disordered relationship with food for a long time. And then developing bulimia going through the process of, you know, just kind of like dipping my toes into recovery a little bit more each time, you're gonna get a lot of a lot of those back and forth moments. And, you know, also what my experience was like working the steps, if you

want an inside scoop to the steps to get this book.

Not so anonymous. So anonymous, I'm anonymous. And then yeah, and then after that, like, there was still some, like, ways that I was gripping on to controlling my food, that going through the process of learning, intuitive eating, and how to eat intuitively. And going, I also kind of like lay out those steps of intuitive eating, and then also how that translated into my life. I started working with a life coach and like living living the principles of intuitive eating in a way that was like, Oh, it's not just about giving myself permission to eat all the food I want. It's actually art, you know, like to eat brownies or something. It's like, I want permission to live a sweet life like, What? What did it really mean for me, and then eventually translating that into creative expression and how it really like, gave me even greater permission to step into my, my creativity, what that even is so yeah, that's pretty much the Yeah, it's kind of the, the arc of the book. Spoiler alert. But no, yeah, the intuitive part is so valuable. And I feel like for anybody that eats food, so that would be anybody, but anybody that would like to discover a new relationship to their food to their body. Like, I feel like we can all use a little bit more intuitive way of signals and listening to our body and understanding the relationship to food because that is a really hard part. And I feel like it's kind of this learning process that doesn't stop, right, because we're always like, our lives are changing, our bodies are changing, our age is changing. And change is the only constant thing in life. And so if we can bring in that intuitiveness and let it kind of be a staple in our life as we move through and then we just allow it to keep learning and keep growing and enjoy life. And the way that it should be enjoyed. So I really, I'm just like, I think this is so valuable. Even if somebody's struggling with an eating disorder, yes, like 100%. Like, I think that like hearing somebody else's story, showing the process of the recovery, just showing the process of the thoughts and like being open, like, that's so powerful, but also for anybody that wants to expand their relationship to food, understand their body more, like, these are all things that we're all dealing with. And that's why I created the podcast is because I feel like a lot of these things aren't talked about enough and, and it gives us an opportunity to just keep expanding and keep learning and right now my own journey intuitive. I'm like diving into that intuitiveness. And so I'm really excited to read your chapter on the integrating intuitiveness throughout your life as a you know, as it evolves, and really getting to that step, because I feel like I've broken down a ton of walls. You know, like a lot of things that I just needed to let go of that was kind of my first step in the process and letting go of the rules and the right and wrong and like the good foods and the bad foods and all of these labels, and let down my walls and like down my control. And and that was so like so, so valuable. So scary, right? Like weight is a real thing. Like it can be a really scary thing. If you start gaining weight, like all of those old habits creep in and like, Oh, now I need to like, okay, now it's time for my extreme diet. Like, I need to cut out all of my sugar like, this is enough, like I'm done. So you have to really be present with yourself and realize like, Oh, that's an old thought, okay, like, I'm now on this new journey. Like I'm now growing in a way that I'm leaving those bad boys behind, like we're leaving, you know, leaving them in the car. Because I'm not like, I'm not available for that anymore. Like, I'm, I'm not like that person anymore. So my rant team is obviously just I want to encourage people to look into your book. And really, that intuitive part can be meant for a lot of people at whatever stage they're at. So thank you so much, Katie, like, thank you for writing the book. Thank you for being on the podcast today. It was such a pleasure talking with you. I know, we could talk for probably three more hours.

For the sake of brevity, yeah. Like if we get into the God and universe like it's over.

No, but I will say that's the real reason I wrote the book is because my relationship with food was a portal into my relationship with life as we as Janine also said, Yeah, by action to love. Yeah, it's, it's a it's great. But there's, it's so beautiful to be here with you. And each moment is a portal into that. So I'm really happy that we got to share this portal together.

Yeah, me too. Are there any last words or messages that you would like to tell our audience or just where we can find you online and connect with you? Yeah, I

would love to connect with anybody listening. I'm on Instagram, I guess I'm most active on the the fed up account. So it's at the fed up book on Instagram. And you can also find me the fed up book calm is where you can find the book and I'm sure you can email me through that. But yeah, I would love to connect with you, especially if any of this like you know resonates with you on your journey. I'm I still have a small enough Instagram following that I literally will respond to you. Just reach out to me if you want to. Yeah, but it's really an honor to be here with you, Katie, thank you for having me.