24. Mother Nature’s Gym / Melanie Webb

Written By Katie Kay
 


Melanie Webb is the founder of Sol Fitness Adventures, author of Adventures in Mother Nature’s Gym, and creator of WebbWell. Do you ever feel like you want more than 1 hour workouts in the gym? After working full-time as a personal trainer, Melanie began to expand her understanding of fitness by combining it with her love & knowledge of biology and nature. On today's episode, Melanie shares her incredible insights of how the mind, body and nature are connected. She shares her experience of how she found harmony between fitness and biology. Her business "Sol Fitness Adventures" was born out of creating an adventure experience with fitness motivation. She wrote her book "Mother Nature's Gym" as a guide for mind-body professionals to offer a lifestyle of mind-body-nature connection.  I can't wait for you to hear all of Melanie's incredible insights!

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Melanie 

Okay, great. Yeah. Well, thank you, Katie. Thank you for that beautiful introduction. Yes, I'm Melanie Webb, and I'm currently working as a performance coach and I am the author and creator of Mother Nature's Jen, which is the, my it's my way of sharing what I've learned through this journey of my last 15 and 20 years working in the fitness industry. So I did reach a point where I was like, You know what, I am I think I have something to say, which I think you can relate to having a podcast. And, and I know, it really comes out of my spirit of giving. And I was very careful to have that as my intention as I wrote the book. And as I go forward with it, so thank you. And my background, I think, I think I just came by this kind of naturally, I grew up in northern Utah on in a really beautiful town that was full of orchards. And I just grew up like a little nature girl. And my father was a biologist, and my mother cared deeply about us getting an education because she didn't go to college. And so, but between the two of them, I was always going to science camps for girls. And I also, me and my siblings, were all very, very competitive little athletes. And so that just I kind of just made my career and my education, follow my upbringing and these things that I was really passionate about.

 

Katie Kay 

Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, growing up, and just having the access to nature and the outdoors. And, and you've incorporated that in such a beautiful way into your work now, can you just give us a little insight into how that progressed, how you went into the fitness space, and then incorporating your knowledge of biology and nature? Yeah,

 

Melanie 

sure. Well, you know, being raised by a teacher, as a, as a father, I, we were all going to go to college, that was the deal, right? And so when I got to college, I naturally, I wanted to become a doctor initially. And then I wanted to be a physical therapist, and an athletic trainer. And so all of my education was really heavy life science. And, and as I got going, I kind of saw the, I think it was my junior year that I saw the writing on the wall, physical therapists were being absorbed into hospital systems. And athletic trainers were having to get teaching certificates and be teachers on top of being athletic trainers, and having watched my father be a school teacher, and you know, in the state of Utah, which they struggle, teachers don't make a lot of money. Um, so I just decided that wasn't the path I wanted to pursue, after all. So I switched gears, and I graduated in a very, like pre med, kind of major, it was human physiology and developmental biology. Sometimes I flipped those keywords. But I also, I also spent so yeah, I always did a ton of research for biology professors. So every semester, I had some kind of a job doing research. So even though my hardcore curriculum was usually revolving around the body, I came out prepared to go in either direction. And that's what I did. And I've never been able to separate the two. So that was kind of the unique thing about my degree, I think, and I'm probably only a few credits from having two bachelor's degrees. But what's the point, right, so anyway, I went to work initially as a wildlife biologist for the Utah division of wildlife resources, and I spent three years working with endangered fish and Toad species in southern Utah, and working on all of the rivers down there. And during that time, I realized how much I missed sports and loved the human body also. So I got certified from the American Council on Exercise as a certified personal trainer, and a couple of nights a week if I wasn't in the back country. With my biology research, I took clients and trained in the gym. So it's really in preparing to talk to you today I realized my whole career path I've had my foot in both of these worlds. Yeah, so I have never been able to separate them. And after five years of, you know, so three years as a biologist and the career progression was to go become an environmental consultant and I ended up with a contract in Washington DC. And I was working in the federal government so I took a sabbatical from fitness but I still was very passionate about it. And I where to go with this whole journey is there's twists and turns Yeah, and basically, I took that year off, but then decided to recommit to my love of the body. And after five years in a biology career, I started a graduate program and exercise science, nutrition and eating behavior, and started working as a personal trainer in a really exclusive club in Washington DC called the sports club

 

Katie Kay 

LA. Wow. Oh my gosh, I know I feel like that questions always Really loaded. It's like telling me everything.

 

Melanie 

And you know, I could skip some chapters, but they're all relevant to why we're here today. So,

 

Katie Kay 

really relevant. It's like this path that you've gone on. It's really beautiful in the way that you've integrated everything that you have learned, and to what you're doing now, and uncommonly, right, like you said, like the wildlife and biology and the fitness. And it seemed like you were almost like, one direction or the other. But now it's like, you've combined these two things, and like the most profound way, so that's really cool. Kind of like just looking at your story as far as like where you are now.

 

Melanie 

Thank you. Yes, I, you know, I kept sitting around, waiting for someone else to do it. And and I realized, no, I'm the one that has to do this. And that was a little intimidating at first. But once I dove in it, it's it's been it's actually been really fun. And the, to fill in the missing gap of how, how we got to a book after going back to personal training. My clients in Washington, DC, when they found out my background, they started asking me if I would take them to these places that I had worked as a biologist. So my office was Zion National Park. That's where I was studying fish. And can I share a really cool story,

 

Katie Kay 

please, always a really cool story.

 

Melanie 

I had actually completely forgotten this until I was preparing to talk to you today. But I remember a day where I was working in the Virgin River. So for anyone listening, if you've ever heard of the Zion narrows, this is a like one of the world's bucket lists adventures to do. I was studying the fish in the river. And I was standing there surrounded by these beautiful towering red clips, you know, probably needed hip deep in the river. And I was holding a fish that's only found in that area. It's really unique. And, and this feeling came over me that and I looked at my colleague, and I said, I'm going to bring people here someday. And it was a feeling it wasn't just some harebrained idea, it kind of took my whole body and then and we started, he and I he was really fun, we started kicking around this idea of becoming guides and Outfitters, right. And so I just kind of sat with that. And I didn't really do anything with it. And then a couple years, fast forward, probably two years, and I'm in DC, and I was sitting on the train going to the idea of fitness conference. So even though I wasn't training at the time, I wanted to keep my certification active, and go to this fun fitness conference for two days on the weekend. And that same feeling came back and it was like, I need to take people on design. And now I was living in urban DC. So I knew, you know, drastic lifestyle change. And it was post 911. It was the year after 911. And the city was there was a sniper on the loose and there were helicopters flying overnight. And I was really shocked by the change in my lifestyle. And I knew that this was a foreign environment to me, and I was really stressed out. And so anyway, I went to work to get a permit to be able to take people into the national parks and the area around it. And so for anyone who doesn't know, you can't just go make money as a private person on public lands, you have to have permission. And it was that whole five year chapter of biology work working as a biology in the government and then becoming an environmental consultant in the government that I had the knowledge of how I needed to go about that. So I applied for the permit, and it took a little work, they had to do an environmental environmental assessment on it because they were used to seeing hunting guides, but no one had come to them and said I want to take people hiking in there and backpacking. And so I was the first person to get a permit to operate a backpacking hiking adventure, just outside of Zion National Park on Bureau of Land Management lands. And so I had that permit and when I went to become a trainer I didn't you know, I didn't have any concept of really business at that point in time. But might when my clients started asking me to take them on this bucket list adventures. I could say, well, I've got an amazing trip for you. But you know, but I would look at them and I was like, I'm not going backpacking in the middle of nowhere with you like you have to get ready. So then it got really fun and I could train them for the adventure, help them buy all the gear and then we would go take the adventure.

 

Katie Kay 

Oh my gosh. So like that moment that you were in Washington DC and you remember that feeling with the fish and like connected to nature. It's so interesting. I feel like the soul and just aren't Tuition or whatever you want to call it, is like always present, it's always there with us. And like the way that that one moment can hit you so hard and transition your life. And it's and I kind of like to think of it as like this two degree shift that when you like, project that two degree, it's like a big, you know, widespread angle of difference. And it kind of seems like, like, that's where it's love you like just that one moment of maybe clarity or touch of your soul and knowing like, that's what you wanted to do. So was it like, was it that kind of like that one moment? And then you realize washington dc wasn't maybe the best place for you? And then you kind of like, was it like transitioning back to Utah? Or how did that like, how does that transition happened for you? Because that's hard, right? If you're in one place, sometimes, like you can feel really stuck and like being there and not being able to change?

 

Melanie 

Yes, that's a great question. Thank you. So the story continues.

 

Katie Kay 

Two hours? Well, it's like, it's fascinating. I just want to make this point, it's like, when I'm hearing you talk, like, I am so fortunate that I get to be here listening to people's stories. And your story is just like, it's so amazing in the way that it's evolved. And like, there's so many components to it, and I feel like you've been through a lot. Much, like, that's kind of an assumption, but also, like, I just kind of feel that and my heart space, and like, you've been, like, you know, like, you've hit all of these different areas in your life. So it's important that we hit on like your story, because it's, it's really profound in a big way. So yeah, anyway, thank you. Yes, yes, I

 

Melanie 

think, you know, and it's something I've grappled with a little bit because when we compare ourselves to others, my career is not a linear path with a clear ending of how I'm going to retire. It's been a very intuitive path. And, and that's made all the difference and it's brought so many, so much joy and some failures along the way to which has been part of my personal growth. So it's been it's like through these through this career path I've been forced to grow as a person and in encountering my clients who they are always these fountains of wisdom and knowledge that they've shared with me and they've mentored me along this path and journey so to come back to your question, no, I stayed in DC for another six years so I I made the full transition into being a personal trainer and within a couple of months I was full time it was a really wonderful city for that like people were very humble in saying hey, this is your degree you're the expert you tell me what I need to do and and it was really empowering to work with people with that kind of mindset and you know, I as I did that full time work and again living in DC I came to really love DC and call it my home I had an amazing community there I had an amazing client base there I had a lot of fun times exploring up and down the East Coast like all of a sudden all the nation's history opened up to me and and I could I had some really amazing friends who are still some of my best friends today and I was very fulfilled like life was whole except that I couldn't just escape to the wilderness easily. I did take a lot of trips to West Virginia and Virginia and Pennsylvania and but I also took my ski trips home to Utah and it was the first time I would ski in Colorado I took a ski trip to Chile with some clients and again I was fully aware that the nature grilling me was starving and and that living on the hamster wheel of one hour sessions in the fitness industry that something was really missing for me and every time I took my clients on one of these trips I saw in their faces I saw them light up and I saw them come to life and I saw their spirits kind of you know that Lightness of Being and and the career obligations and whatever stressors were coming from being in this environment in DC was just kind of melting off and I started just observing that and thinking to myself, okay, I knew what was missing. But these people are like totally different human beings out here. What's going on? Um, and anyway, I was pretty content. Like I said, I was pretty established as a trainer. They're doing really, really well and Living a life well beyond my means because of the generosity of my own clients. So when all of a sudden I got sick and I was I didn't realize it at the time, but I was burning out on trade takes seem to many clients like six by the last year I was there I was. So my seventh year in DC I was I went nine months working six days a week, at least, at least eight to 11 clients a day and that nobody needs to do that. My gosh, it just I didn't know my limits, you know, the I had transitioned to a smaller private studio, where the owner was just incredibly demanding and downright abusive, and you were expected to put in these kind of hours and, and really perform. And so while I was at the top of my game, as a trainer, personally, it was really beginning to take a toll. And I remember it cutting into my social life and I got sick one day maybe I had, I don't know, I seem to have bronchitis or something. And I remember sitting in my little studio apartment in DC. And I had a vision of Zion National Park in broad daylight. It's like very vivid and, and I just realized it was calling me home. And that and at that moment I did, I did a visualization and I remembered those times of just being out in the sunshine in Zion. And anytime I felt unwell during the time I lived in southern Utah, you know, you go sit in the sunshine, and use suddenly, like, your mood can shift you feel better. And so I did this visualization on my own to try to feel better. And I was like, why am I doing that? Why don't I just go be there. And and within two months, I had sold everything I owned in DC. I had said goodbye to my clients and I packed my little Volkswagen Golf and I drove home. And I like to say I hit Utah and then I just kept going. So after I actually spent a few months in Zion, I picked up some guided work and just allowed myself to like hang out in this place that I love so much. And then I and then I moved to Santa Barbara, California, and this was post. This was 2010. So the 2008 2009 market crash had already happened. But it kind of followed me out west. So when I got to Santa Barbara, it was very hard to break in as a personal trainer. People were still reeling from that financial crash. And it was also a very territorial space to try to break into. So I really struggled in terms of building a client base. And but what was cool is that gave me opportunity to get a little more inventive and creative. And I started getting clients that were now not just workaholics with one hour to spare to work out in the gym. They were training for things like Kilimanjaro. And so all of a sudden, I could be like, What do you mean, you've never been camping or hiking, but you're gonna go like Kilimanjaro. I'm like, okay, we're gonna go to the eastern Sierras, we're gonna hike a fourteener. And we're going to show you what it feels like to sleep on the ground after you're really tired. And because you cannot go there in a headspace not prepared for the total spectrum of what you are about to take on. And that was so amazing and fun. And that's really so I had I had started my business sole fitness adventures while I was in DC, but it was California. That opened the opportunities to me. And that only happened out of the adversity of not being able to fall back onto what I'd always done. I had to get a little more creative.

 

Katie Kay 

Yeah, yeah. And I just want to go back to that point, but you were you were sick in your body and in the adrenal, right adrenal,

 

Melanie 

oh, I hadn't even had adrenal fatigue yet, that was still in the future.

 

Katie Kay 

Coming up, but it is like it is powerful in a way like when you don't feel good in your body. It's like the body has such a powerful way of telling us when things aren't working, working and like I remember my first year in college, I went to Montana State and Bozeman and I was sick for like, basically a whole year it felt like it might have been more like six months but like it's it sucks when you're in that place, and you're just like, like I had the same thing like bronchitis and sinus infections and I couldn't get better it couldn't heal. And it's like looking back now I can kind of see like that burden on my body and it was almost like my body telling me like something wasn't right. And it kind of sounded like the same experience a little bit in the way that you all they said. We're like having these visions of going into the cyan and opening up that space for your intuition to guide you. And like you said, You're very intuitive person. And it makes me think that maybe like, your ability to bounce around is like opening up space for the intuitive guide to take you where you need to go. And like for me, like I have, like, I think like I stay in a place for way too long. Because I feel, you know, like obligated to be there and, like stuck like, like that word comes to mind is like being stuck there. And, like in Bozeman, like being sick for so long, and just like, the willpower to stay and like, not want to leave. And it's like, I guess I'm just like, I want this message to come to the audience. Because if somebody is in a hard place, it's hard to have perspective of, like the bigger picture and maybe hope is coming, and maybe just allowing space for the intuitive signs to come up. Because like, I think that's like really powerful as far as like having a vision of Xi'an and like, like, you open that space for you to kind of like have that intuitive guide come in. And so maybe it's about like doing nothing and just allowing that space to exist, especially if you feel stuck. And just like if you're in the discomfort, just be in the discomfort. And like the signs will come to you when they need to. And I just I don't know why I ranted about that. But at that like that, that particular moment that you said, it just kind of hit me in that way of like relating to when I've in my own life when I've kind of like realized like, maybe I need to be in a different place.

 

Melanie 

Yeah, thank you for sharing that Katie and reflecting that back to me also and catching that observation. And I it goes to show like pay attention. Yeah. And as we pay attention, life will show us what's not working. But I think a lot of us have been conditioned to be achievers and, and power through things. That's what I've learned through my own journey of injury. And being in my own body is that we want to power through and force something when our body's asking us to pause and take a look at what's not working. And I have to share also, I was working with an energy healer at that time, who I worked with for a number of years. And I told her about the vision. And it wasn't like in that moment. I decided to move but it was in talking to my teacher that she helped me see that hey, Sister, I think you've accomplished what you came here to do. I think I think this place is not edifying you anymore. And I think you need to move think about moving on. And so I that she gave me permission to allow that space to open and work with that intuitive vision that I had had and realize it was inviting me to something so much bigger. And and there is an energy to being stuck and our bodies shows us where we're stuck. And so I think our body can be the intuitive guide

 

Katie Kay 

Oh yeah, and I love how you you had that support. Yeah, and that can be a very valuable thing as well just knowing like reaching out for guidance and it made me think about your book and you have a chapter on being a guide. And I loved that because for me in the podcast like I want to be the best guide I can be and be the most supportive and but I love the like messages of as a guide you're really trying to tap into the person that you're helping and what's true for them and with compassion and you listed all these fabulous words and I can't quite remember but like I definitely remember compassion and being with their own truth and, and like in so in a way it's like you now are this amazing guide for people and like being helping others tap into their own intuition and maybe some of the probably some of the trips that you've taken your clients on like I'm sure they've all had experiences of perspective shifts and transitions and you in that chapter I could see you being a very profound guide and the way that you are not you know, telling people what's right or like choosing exactly what they need to do that day or whatever it is like meeting them where they're at been there for them? Is that support guiding them? Really, it was like really cool chapter. And so I want to get into the book because the book was so amazing. And so can you just tell us the audience for that? Don't know your book, just like a little like brief? Like, what's the book? What's it about? And then we can kind of get into the details.

 

Melanie 

Sure, sure, I'd be happy to. Well, like all great books, it has a long subtitle, the Ultimate Guide to planning and leading your own outdoor fitness retreat. And what I was really trying to do is say, you know, again, speak to people who had Breton in my shoes, so the primary audiences, you know, anybody who has a curiosity about nature, and our well being is going to benefit from the book. But I also wanted to create and share a toolkit to people who are working in the fitness and Mind Body industries, to say, here's the other half, like, we've all been taught how to bring people inside and work with equipment inside, but at some point, you've kind of hit like, you hit a dead end there. And, and most of us have passions outside of the gym, where the natural I feel like fitness and mind body, people are the natural leaders and guides to take these clients that they've created bonds with and share a beautiful human experience outdoors. So my idea with retreat, you know, my business model for a long time was these big productions, multi day trips, the book doesn't even go there. The book is saying, What's in your own backyard? What's near you that you've always wanted to see that your clients probably aren't making time for? or haven't been there themselves? How can we turn people on to a lifestyle of activity rather than selling one hour indoor structured movement sessions. And anyone who's had an experience outdoors knows how now now all of a sudden, you're in a different realm. And so that's what I wanted to share with the book. And so it starts out by sharing a lot of this amazing, very cool research that other researchers have done indicating and showing us like what's happening to the human body and brain when you're outdoors in certain environments. And then, and then it's full of mindful or there's a chapter on mindfulness and meditations like certain activities that I do with my clients when we're in those environments to optimize what's happening in the brain. And then how to combine those with your favorite activity. So in my case, my my specialty as a guide is hiking, backpacking, cycling, stand up paddling right and so it's how to combine those mindfulness activities with the big event which is movement with an I included an exercise library of exercises I love to do with people outside that don't require any equipment. So you can kind of put these pieces together the basic formula is Mind Body nature, how do we move the body in a way that prepares the mind to have a restorative experience in nature and retreat can be anything it can be an hour it can be three hours? Yeah,

 

Katie Kay 

so yeah, and so I have to be honest, when I first bought the book, I was like okay, well like I know like okay, I know exercise like I know exercise in the gym, I go to the yoga studio, and then I'm also like, love to go outside so I know like a mountain bike and go skiing and so I'm like, okay, like I'm pretty like good. Like I'm good here like I got the mind body connection dialed and so I'm like, I have it, like, let's see, like, let's see what this book is all about. And it really like I think the the main thing I got from it was how much space expanded my understanding of exercise and I think for me, I am motivated when I have an underlying knowledge of some things like the benefits and like understanding like why I would be you know, swimming laps in the pool or whatever, whatever it is. And that might just be the overthinker in me and the analyzer but I'm the like from the book I got a lot of that kind of that motivation and understanding as well as like, why like, like, why is water so important to end like, why would somebody like swim laps or be by a lake or like the desert and what kind of effects does that have on the hormones in the brain and, and like, it was really like, a lot of things like I didn't think about so like, obviously like I grew up in nature too. And like, I love to be outside. And I love to exercise but it is like really interesting, like after I got done reading the book, I was like, I think like I was pretty limited in my scope of understanding, like, not just the connection and the science behind it. But like, the whole open awareness of, like how much space there is to understand exercise and understand, like, the variety of what that definition means. And like, I want the like with the podcast like I really want to expand and open that space because like feeling the perfectionism feeling the people pleasing feeling the stuckness in our body like we need some more perspective shifts and understanding and now book was your your book was very profound in the way that it did that.

 

Melanie 

That's awesome to hear. Thank you for your feedback. Thank you so much.

 

Katie Kay 

Yeah, and I think like that's just what I gained from it, but I'm sure many other people would take get different takeaways. And so could you go into the like, some of the connection was the with the brain? And how, like, the chemicals are influenced when we're out in nature, because I found that to be like a really interesting point. And there's a name for it right? There's a shoe now I forget. I probably wrote it in my in my notes. A new

 

Melanie 

Are you thinking of the term biophilia? I Yeah, that one was that I remember that from your from the

 

Katie Kay 

I wrote all these notes. Yeah, I think it was

 

Melanie 

that and there's others in the book. Yeah, I can expand on those. Okay. So So biophilia is a concept of a really famous, very, very innovative ecologist named eo Wilson coined the term biophilia. And he discovered any any made this theory that every single human being has an innate instinctive need to have a connection to the natural environment? And of course we do, but we've forgotten that in our modern world. And here's a question here's, I'm just going to pose a point by asking a question. So what happens when you sell people on the idea that the only way to exercise is by coming indoors, and then you take it away from them. And if you think about it, that's exactly what happened during the global pandemic. And it's what continues to happen to gyms right now. So what I tried to what I hoped the book accomplishes is help us function like human beings, again, with a with a connection to the natural environment, and realize that we've been marketed to. And we've been told that the only place for us to exercise is to come inside on a treadmill. And, and don't get me wrong, I still train clients indoors, I still work out indoors, there's a place for it. And even for those of us who are outdoors, the people, we know we feel good by being outside. But we don't always know why. And of course, we get endorphins from the movement. So some of the other concepts that I wrote in the book, there's one called that I called Blue mind, and another one called Green mind. And then I call the third one desert mind. So the desert is where I've spent a huge amount of time guiding clients. And there I went a little more a little more on my soft mystical side by saying that, you know, that Mother Nature creates an environment for me and my clients where we can support one another. And where we can feel love for each other as a human being. And that's come out of the problem solving and the obstacles that we've encountered there right like it. people's fears really can be triggered in the outdoor environment. It's kind of like you get disarmed. And all of a sudden, you know, in the places where I was operating for a long time on the rivers, like we a couple times, I had to dodge flash floods, and there was quicksand, and there were heights, right? So people's fear of heights all of a sudden that that they'd forgotten they had and now as a guide, I have to get them through this and do it in a loving way. But we got to get out of here because this rivers gonna flood people, you know what I mean? And so backing up so, blue mind, everyone, I think needs to know about Wallace J. Nichols. He's a he call he says he lives on the slow coast. He lives in California. He's a marine biologist. And he's really he wrote a book called Blue mind, the shared the science of what happened, what is happening when you're on in near or under the water. And I've met Jay a couple of times, at different adventure travel industry events, and we've connected over biology and our shared passion for this, this theme of what's happening to the body out there. And so water is like our natural environment, right? When all you have to do is place yourself near water, you can accomplish this by taking a shower sitting next to a water fountain. If not, you know if you don't have the opportunity to be in by a natural stream or lake or ocean, but all of a sudden the brain starts to release feel good hormones like oxytocin. When you're in the water, the pressure of the water against your body releases things, it helps fight other stress. And it gives you this sense of, you know, that heavy blanket over you feeling like just being back in the womb and with this little baby. And so so that calms down the stress response. It also has been showed if you're working on swimming, so the coordination of breath work with moving arms and legs has been shown to have what's called cognitive reserve. So it has the highest amount of preserving your brain, cognitively, because you're coordinating and having to think about all these things. And I know great swimmers no longer have to think about these things, they become really second nature to them. But if you don't swim all the time, you have to think pretty hard about when you're going to take that breath, at least I always do. And so that's that's what it's called Blue mind. So I wanted. So in my chapter on nature, I wanted to share that science and then also share some of the meditations I like to do in those environments, with my clients that again, optimize that brain response. So and this is what I realized as a guide is that I didn't have to do all the work, I had this partner and Mother Nature and all I needed to do was facilitate and set up a safe, structured plan for my people. But once I got them out there, nature was gonna do its work naturally. And I didn't have to force anything. So it just happens in our brain. And then another another category, I call it green mind. And that's Florence Williams work. And she's a really phenomenal writer. And she wrote a book called The nature fix, which explores more, it goes really deep into all of these concepts of what's happening to the body, the human body when we're outdoors. And so some of the things from her research, your listeners might have heard of the concept of forest bathing, or shinrin. Yoku. So forest bathing is it came out of Japan. So I want to say, oh, in like 2010s, or somewhere around there. Japan was experiencing a very high incidence of suicides, because people were so stressed out. And the government realized it had to do something. So they began sending doctors into their parks and forests, who were measuring people's physiological responses to being out there. And they found that taking a walk in the forest, compared to taking a walk in an urban environment causes your blood pressure to your systolic blood pressure to drop by six beats. So just something about the nature of being outside in nature was more relaxing. And then they found that the frontal cortex of the brain that's think behind the forehead, right, but that's our thinking brain or monkey mind brain. And it quieted so the brainwaves actually slow down when people were outside. And that's that's not a bad thing for anybody listening. It's, it's indicative of the brain getting a restorative break, and getting a break from that anxiety and monkey mind. thoughts, thoughts, thoughts all the time, right. So that's some of what, what is shared in the green mind chapter. And then again, more activities and mind mindfulness activities that I've done in those green environments. And then I started about the desert. So So that's some of what's in there. And again, I just, there's other researchers that I cite a man named Richard Lu who talked about he wrote a book called last child in the woods, that talks about children's development, and when they don't get the outdoors, what happens to them all kinds of learning disabilities. So we know that people who spend time outdoors have greater resilience, which is really important in today's world, we know that we have greater spatial, the way we move through space is better if we get to spend time outdoors. And so his work is cited in there. And it was really fun actually, it was probably the science nerd in me too. Like, I geek out on all these books. And it was really fun to break them down and just say, Hey, here's what's happening out there. Here's what you need to know.

 

Katie Kay 

Yeah. Oh my gosh, there's so much I want to hit on there's so much information. I love it. I love it all. Let me relate this back to when you said There's got to be something more than just that one hour exercise and the day that we go to the gym and exercise. And look in your book, I think like you have found a ton of those missing links. And I just want to relay that back to our listeners and kind of like when I was reading the book, what I took away from it, but so exercise, like we go to the gym and exercise for an hour, it helps us feel really good. And say, like, a lot of people, I think their health goal, burn those calories, right? lose the weight. And so there's also a component of happiness, right? Like, we exercise because we want to be happy, and we want to feel good. And yes, like it's about maybe for some people that calorie loss, but they also want, they want those good fuel goods, they want that happiness. So I think we're the happiness, that leak is where you have really expanded our knowledge and understanding of exercise. Because it's not just about, like losing the weight, burning the calories. But also, it's like, there's this variety and understanding that we need to have about what does happiness even entail? And what like, how are we accessing it. And like we were talking about, I think our understanding has been limited and our scope of like, our to do list and getting this one hour fix in which oh my gosh, for me, like that was my, that was my schedule, like, when is my one hour exercise like, and like I'd wake up and be like, like, I can't make it today I'm too tired, and then the whole day would be blown because I didn't feel good. I didn't make it to the gym. And obviously, like my happiness was decreased by that. But like, what else can we do to be happy and incorporate it as a definition of exercise. So like you were saying in the water, like just maybe like, on your sitting on your paddleboard or doing, you know, sitting in water, doing like nothing like meditating or something like that can still be considered exercise in my mind, because it's linked to that happiness. And, and even if you're really focused on that burning the calories like that happiness will transform your whole day and might transform your whole week. So it's all interrelated, right? It's all connected. So maybe if you're finding an hour in the swimming pool, and you're just sitting there, and you get those benefits, maybe you don't reach for the food and the snacks because you're needing that emotional release. So like, I'm not saying, you know, this fits this isn't. And this is actually what I want to say it's not like a one size fits all. And you've really opened the scope for understanding of like, how we can access different points of happiness in our exercise, and what that actually looks like. That was probably like a really messy way to, like, understand, like, what I got from the book, but like the podcast, like I want to open up choice, I want to empower people's ability to just take what resonates for them, and then just leave everything else. And I and I want to open up that space so that they have more choices to understand what the truth is that they need, what will align with them best. And the way that we have restricted exercise to mean this one thing is just like, oh, man, it's such a bummer, right? And like No wonder like, we've kind of like been stuck in like depression and you bring this up in your book, like depression, anxiety, like all the things that result from like the society and the and some of the rules that we live by. Thank you for letting me rant found that, like, go for it. And if there is anything as well that you disagree with, obviously like please let me know. But that was just my own truth and understanding I received from your book, so thank you.

 

Melanie 

My pleasure. And there's so much to unpack so much to unpacking what you just said. And it's beautiful and I love the way you're you are inviting the listeners to explore the vast expanse of movement and exercise and, and something came to mind while while you were sharing that there is a man who have I've studied his methods of teaching breathwork for a long time, and he had to sing I heard him say this. I think it was the mind body idea. Mind. Body Fitness conference years ago, he said, the days of speaking of the mind, body and emotions as three separate entities are

 

Katie Kay  

over. Yeah, they are over,

 

Melanie 

we have to realize that we're sometimes we want to function like heads on put on a body that doesn't inter Connect. And we know that that everything about the science, everything about what we've learned, if you go back to your most intuitive way of being as a human, we know that, that that is incorrect, and that we've been industrialized and conditioned. And you know, I studied some human evolution in my coursework in school. And so I was very fascinated by this, if just look at the trajectory of humanity and entering this technologically advanced world, we have so many benefits, but we've never been so unhealthy, especially in our minds. And we're having to adapt very quickly when you compare it to the 1000s of humans who lived before us who evolved on this planet, with their feet on the ground, in connection with Earth, and we have forgotten that within, you know, within two generations, all of a sudden, we're no longer reliant on the food that we can grow, we can just go buy it without even thinking about where it came from. And we're just, you know, on these hamster wheels, I call it the hamster wheel of one hour workouts. Like, okay, we're gonna fit in this one hour, and that's life. And don't get me wrong, like, I think an important approach is to let go of the all or nothing black and white thinking, and realize, okay, I lost that hour, like, my day is just gotten so busy, I'm not going to be able to get that hour at the gym or at the studio that I was looking forward to, what can I do instead, I can, I've got 15 minutes, I can do some bodyweight squats outside. And I can move my body vigorously, in a way that helps my mind deal with these anxieties that I've gotten. And I think we're in a really exciting time in terms of science and research and what we're learning. So and we seem to need that, right. If we're gonna forget the way our ancestors live, give us the science and tell us the why. So there are analytical mind can wrap our heads around it and do it but but now we know that, for example, that the optimum amount of time to exercise to help with anxiety and depression is three to four times a week, 35 to 40 minutes a day, or each session vigorously whatever that means to you. So you have to personalize this, but we know for a fact that that makes an impact on anyone struggling with depression and anxiety. So and it reinforces that idea that the mind the body, the emotions, they're all connected. And we know that our body stores emotions. So again, like I realize a lot of us live in urban very urban environments. And, and that's why I didn't write the book to say go spend days on end in the mountains. You know, I hope that you have something within two to four hours of you that interests you that will make you feel alive and happy like you're talking about and you know, I don't know anyone who was happy from running on the treadmill. I used to run a lot. Five K's 10 K's I trained for a triathlon and marathon. I've spent my time on the treadmill. It never once made me happy.

 

Katie Kay 

It felt great. Yeah,

 

Melanie 

I was. I was I was pleased that I was moving towards my goals, but happiness. No, no,

 

Katie Kay 

yeah. Yeah. And I think like, we each have our own truth, right? So somebody may like that might be the happiest place that they have on the treadmill. But I do think like, there's, like you what you're talking about is like there's that missing link that like, there's more options and more connection, and more happiness that we can find when we integrate nature and like being out and surrendering to like, the wild and surrendering to what we don't know. And like you were talking about with your clients like being, you know, heights and being having fear of heights. It's like, it teaches us and it has so many different lessons that go beyond what we can even, like, comprehend or overthink or analyze when we're out there and and yeah, I think like it's just important to like meet people where they're At and like even though we have all this proof in science, like when I was dealing with depression, like, I couldn't make it to the gym, you know, and it's like even though we have this like 30 like minutes for three times a week, it's like, if that's all I knew, I would feel it probably even worse that I couldn't get out of bed and make it to the gym. So it's having the availability to just have a bunch of different options so that you can be like, oh, that, that feels good, like, going on a walk, like, okay, like, that's something that that feels good today for me and, and not feeling so restricted in the availability and like amazing possibilities that are offered. outside and and then doors and, like you're talking about breathwork and that mindfulness and yeah, so it's, yeah, it's like opening up that space, which is exactly what you did.

 

Melanie 

Wonderful. Mission accomplished.

 

Katie Kay 

100%. Um, so I did. Look, you sent me this awesome video, and I'll put it in the in the show notes, but it introduces you and it has like all these beautiful, scenic pictures of outside and it was really great. But you mentioned in that YouTube video that you did struggle with adrenal fatigue. And so you've been through your own body struggles? Can you tell us a little bit about what that experience was like? And, and how you? Yeah, like, what, what caused that?

 

Melanie 

What caused that was me feeling like I had to do everything myself, and not realizing that I needed to factor in some recovery time in all of my activity. And I think, you know, when you're young and ambitious, you can you kind of forget these things, right? And you just get excited and dive in. And when I, I was told I had adrenal fatigue when I was around 40. And so I was working, working in my business, so fitness adventures. And I think I, I mean, the, the upside was that my business was doing well. And I personally was getting a lot of really amazing opportunities to guide with some of the biggest, most What do what do, I want to say, the most accomplished tour operators who wanted to send their clients to me in southern Utah, so I thought it would be a good idea to allow them to book me for eight weeks in a row, these were six day trips back to back to back to back with like 20 people per trip. And all of these, everybody was paying $1,000 per person per day to be on these trips. So the stakes were really high. These were people who expected, extremely high level of service. So so that's one thing, you know, what I realized in my business, and where I needed to scale, it's one thing to sell people active trip and tell them to come out with me for four or five days. And that's their vacation once a year, right. And this is a for them an opportunity to get away from the grind and spend four days being very active and outdoors. But for me to do that, endlessly. Without a day off to recover without a week off to recover. It was a terrible idea. And basically the stress the physical output on top of the mental stress of running these trips, I just wasn't myself and I, I was getting hangry all the time. And I was not sleeping at night, and I had restless leg which my 94 year old grandma was telling me about her restless leg and I was like, oh, what's happening to me, I was still young, I shouldn't be having these problems and my hormones were getting messed up and I didn't know that my hormones were messed up but I could see my muscle mass changing on my body. And part of that was I wasn't near the gym to lift weights which I've always done. So again, I want to reinforce this point. I am not saying stop lifting weights or stop going to the gym. I'm just saying step into the outdoors every once in a while too. But anyway, I just wasn't myself and so when I I was really written down and I so I went to the doctor had some blood tests done. She did also what's called a cortisol saliva test. So your cortisol levels are supposed to come up in the morning. That's what gets us going. My adrenals had become so tired of pumping out the adrenaline that would keep me at this high level of physical activity. That they had started borrowing from my sex hormones, basically. So my, like, my progesterone, my estrogen, my testosterone were out of whack because my adrenals couldn't produce enough cortisol. So, so the adrenals had to start borrowing from different places. And the good news is, you know, you, my doctor was really on top of and learned in this thing. And the solution was just, it was really easy, actually, it was slow down, stop doing that, and eat, I had to eat more frequently throughout the day, and I had to eat a lot. And I had to start supplementing with a lot of different kinds of vitamins and like things like ashwagandha and rhodiola ginseng. And, and it was, like, I was really, I was really surprised by this diagnosis, I had never heard of it before. I'd never heard of people talking about it before I'd heard people say burnout. But it seemed like it always referred to a mental state of tiredness, like I had reached in DC before. And, and so it was kind of a shock. And she was basically told me, you know, you need to change your trajectory, or else it could end eventually what can happen if you don't is you're then it starts to impact your kidneys, and you can go into kidney failure. And this is this is pretty common. Men and women both can get adrenal fatigue, endurance athletes, I've made it actually once I experienced it, I've met a lot of people who've experienced it. And a lot of long distance runners, both male and female, have had it as well. And it just reinforces the idea of recovery, taking care of our mind. Knowing that there's a balance to all things. I I had a break in my guiding season at that point. So which I share in the video. I I went to stay at a former clients place in Florida and, and I on my journey, I met this really amazing physician named Karen Koffler who wrote the book, or excuse me, wrote the foreword in my book. And she was one of the first doctors to study under Dr. Andrew Weil, who's one of the first integrative medicine physicians in America. And this taught for years at a place called Canyon Ranch, which is one of the spas that's really known as a medical destination spa. And so Karen and I became friends and I just immersed myself in a healing journey for the first time. So if I back up, you know, I've had being an athlete and outdoorsy person, I've had injuries, like I had to have a shoulder surgery from playing softball for so many years, and I've had a knee really bad knee injury that I came back from, but those were things I could see. And, you know, and the healing process to something that you can't see is very different. It's almost It was almost scarier because I couldn't fall back on my vision. But, but that's where I got, I would say, I turned more and more to mindfulness and the breath work and my research on what's happening to the body when I'm out here because I felt so much better being at the ocean being in the sunlight. So I was getting vitamin D, swimming in the water in the salt water and just letting the rhythms just kind of rock. Karen calls it our bio rhythms. And she prescribes people to go outside. She's a medical doctor, she's but she's writing prescriptions for people to go outside. So she was really a cool person to connect with. Um, anyway, that's my experience of adrenal fatigue. And, and it stayed with me, it's not something that I can you know, I can't go back to that way of living again. Yeah, nor do I want to.

 

Katie Kay 

Yeah, yeah. I think you make a really good point. As far as like it, it's scary when you're dealing with something that's painful, and you can't see it. And I think a lot of us have a lot of pain inside. And then again, it can kind of come up to being a real health condition when it's untreated. Mm hmm. And, yeah, I think like, I also believe that it's our struggles that are greatest teachers and so like for you, like being able to go on that healing journey, like it ended up being a positive, positive thing in your life. And now So now, I'm trying to have that attitude in my life when I'm really struggling is like I'll be able to have a just like some open space for it and just allow it to be there but also know it's teaching And the way that I will heal and come out of it on the other side and then in a better way. And so like any I feel like any body, like any body's pain, any struggles, like whether they're outside or inside. And like you said, like we've kind of like blurred the vision between the mind and body now and like they're all they're all interrelated and it's kind of this like, one it is this one unit. And so yeah, I think like, just having like, a different perspective on it. And, like, I can be scary and, and I'm just like, I'm glad that you gave us that perspective of like, going through that because like, I'm sure at the time, like, that was that's a big thing, like your hormones, your emotions, like, like you probably felt like so wrapped up in, in the pain of it.

 

Melanie 

Yeah, I was very scared. You know, when you start talking about hormones, all of a sudden, things become real, you're 40 years old, being told you're going to go into menopause, if you don't stop this. That's a shock to hear. And I want to also share for any of your readers, that's normal today. And, and that's what's sad is that we're not being told what's normal anymore. And we're held to these perfect standards of women, right? And then men also, but as a woman, I'll speak to the women that were supposed to be these vibrant sexual beings all the time. And what terrified me most was that I wouldn't be that anymore, right? Or, or that. Like I said, that I was that my body composition was changing. And yeah, it was the thing out of my control. And it meant that, like, was my thyroid, okay? Because that was potentially indicated. And was that going to come back from this? Or is this this chronic thing that I'm always going to struggle with now from now on. And what my doctor helped me realize is, this is a very type a type of I don't it's not a disease, it's chronic illness, right? It's, it happens to those of us who are type a perfectionist, people pleasers who allow energy vampires into our space who take from us, right there, there was an emotional side to why I got into this. And, and again, I was, you know, working on my business and in very demanding circumstances, but my personality also is like, I, I'm a people pleaser, and I've had to come full circle to accepting and, and these are, these are amazing opportunities for growth, if we can learn to treat our body with compassion instead of as the adversary. Like, why I was trying to power through stuff and push through this, right? Like, where did that come from? Who told me that that was how I had to be? And why did I allow them to tell me that, you know, so. And I think a lot of that, you know, you're born with ambition, you're born with these drives, and but you've got to learn how to work with them, too. You've got to learn how to harness those and that you can't be on one speed all the time. Like, I like to say that the composition or the harmony is really it. We hear the harmony because of the pause between the notes. If life What if any music only had notes in it, but no pauses, it wouldn't be music at all. It wouldn't make any harmonious sound to our ears, it would just be a bunch of noise. So these pauses in my own healing, they've actually forced me to take a step back and examine myself and do some work emotionally. And I am a huge advocate of having people on your team and not trying to do these things alone. And I think maybe it's from growing up as an athlete and playing team sports that I always had these awesome coaches. So ever as an adult, I've always sought out the coaches and the healers and I've gone really deep into the healing arts, shamans, energy healers, you know, therapists, when I was injured, healing my shoulder, and I realized I couldn't just run through my pain anymore. My emotional pain. I had to learn a different way to be in my body. And, you know, I was like, I probably should go do some therapy. That's a great idea. I was like 30 right. And and I've always had such amazing experiences, exploring the depths of my mind and realizing that I can change and I do have some choice over how I'm living my life. So yeah, I would say to your readers, Find the healers, find your teachers and your mentors and invest in them if you can, you know, if you have some spare money do that. The amazing thing about the internet now is that you can look people like Katie up on your on a podcast and learn, like all this knowledge available at our fingertips that doesn't require money. But none of us we are social creatures. And none of us can do this by ourselves. We need help.

 

Katie Kay 

Oh, like such a beautiful message. I was just soaking that in. And also in your book, I remember you talking about the energy of the earth. And I loved that, can you go into that, because maybe like you're not ready for therapy, but stepping outside and being in that vibration might might allow some surrender and, and access some of those deeper places.

 

Melanie 

Absolutely. So that I'm so glad you brought that up, because I was so excited when I first learned about this idea. You know, we we speak a lot about somebody's vibe, right? Like, I'm vibing really high or, well, that person has really bad energy, I don't want to be around them or in our own bodies, what kind of energy are we putting off, so we, but we don't think of it, or speak of it much as a frequency. But it's measurable. Again, going back to nerdy scientists, Melanie, it's measurable. And our brain, we know has different waves, alpha waves, beta waves, theta waves, and a couple of these states of mind, like we were talking about the monkey mind before in the prefrontal cortex, which is where we have cognitive thought, when you're always in this thinking, thinking, thinking racing fast mode, that's actually not a creative state of mind. So one of the benefits of slowing down and spending time outdoors is getting our bodies in sync with the rhythms of nature, which believe it or not, the earth also is putting off of a frequency. And if you think about it, this makes sense, right? Energy waves. Water has a frequency, lightning has a frequency, everything has a frequency. And that's one reason why we're all connected. Right to go to that, Mr. Cool. It's only it's not mystical, it's scientific also. But anyway, there was a NASA science scientists called Dr. Schumann, he's credited with measuring the frequency of the earth and he measured it at like 7.4 hertz. My memory for numbers isn't fantastic, but I'm pretty sure that's what it is. And what's really interesting is that when you look at the human mind, our creative states also measure within a range, including that 7.4 hertz. And, and it was Karen Koffler, she actually came out to Utah with her kids. And I took them through this slot canyon, and we were sitting there eating lunch one day, and you know, the conversations you have with people sitting on in the mud, like eating a sandwich. They're really fun. And she's the one that told me about this first. So I went and looked it up. And I found it very fascinating that that when we are at our most relaxed state, and create which is creativity, that that is in sync with the earth what the earth is putting off like why do I feel so good out there? Why does my mind relax out there? Why does my brain start creating these feel good hormones out there? Right? And we know that doesn't happen on a treadmill. I haven't I haven't read the research. But I remember somebody telling me that they had done research on the frequency that the treadmill was coming off Actually, this is when I was running on the treadmill a lot and training for races. And I thought this person was a total quack. I just paid them no mind whatsoever. Um, but um, anyway, yeah. This is philosophy. According to Melanie Webb, I think that the Earth was, you know, that the earth nurtures us. And that we don't even understand the depth of how it's doing that. But that we are intimately connected to it. And we know that we are of the earth also, right? If you look at our body composition, where 60% water, guaranteed a molecule that water once flowed through a glacier. Think about that. How ancient that is. The heme molecule of the blood is stardust. That's the only piece of the human body that is not from this planet. Everything else is minerals. And so this is literal This is like, oh, no wonder we evolved on the planet. And, and again, coming back to it like, we've just kind of forgotten that. But But oh, coming back to the resonance and the vibe I've experienced twice, only twice. I have all the years and years and years I've spent being out there two times. So here's the first time this was about four years ago, and I was camping outside of Zion and some clients were mother daughter were preparing to fly in the next day from Florida and I had bought all of their camping gear, they wanted to learn how to camp because she was retiring and they wanted to, like, really have fun in her next chapter of life. So my job was to teach them how to use all this gear and, and it was gonna be really fun trip. So I was on the east side, there was nobody around. Like they were arriving the next day. And I was laying in my tent that night. And I love to practice Qigong. Qigong is one of my favorite forms of moving meditation and working with my own energy. So I had sat by the fire for a long time. And the amazing thing is cell phone. Cell phones don't work where I was. So I was forced to unplug, go figure, all of a sudden, I'm in a receptive state of mind, because I'm not being distracted. I don't have FOMO I can't get there's nothing I can do about it anyway, it just plain won't turn on, right? So I'm laying on my bed, and all of a sudden, I can hear this like buzzing. And I was like, what, what is that sound? And I was thinking, like, Did I not notice a power line nearby? What is that, and it stayed it was there. And there were no power lines within miles of where I was. And I realized that that was the first time I was like, I'm hearing you're hearing the Schumann residence. But it's because I had prepared my mind through this movement, this Qigong practice, and staring at the fire, which our ancestors did like this is in our DNA to live like this. Our DNA knows to how to respond when we put ourselves in those environments. It's calming, right? For 1000s of years, humans came around the fire and shared stories. That's how we learn to survive. That's how we learn to live was from our elders passing down these verbal stories to us. So my brain was in a receptive state, and in that quietness, I could hear it. And I was I was like, overjoyed, it was so much fun. And then, and then the last time I heard it was actually a few months ago, I was exploring in Goblin Valley State Park, which is in Utah. And that was my first time there. And I was just shocked, I was like, This place is so cool, you know, all these Goblin looking formations everywhere. And for whatever reason, there was like nobody there that day. And at least not at that moment, as I was hiking out, people started to arrive. But I had hiked as far back as I could, I mean, this area is really pretty small, actually. And I just kept going and going and following the openings in the rock, and I was sitting, sitting on this, you know, just sitting my butt on the dirt between the spires. And I heard it again. I'm so and it's just always makes me so happy. And I realized that my body was the tool that put me in that receptive place. And some of us are like that, not ever, and this is where everybody, I think comparison is such a difficult thing. And I don't like to share these stories all the time, because I don't want to set up the expectation that if you don't have this experience, you're doing something wrong, because that's not true. And we all like you pointed out so brilliantly. We're all on our own journey. And our bodies respond differently to stimulate mine response to physical movement. physical movement puts my mind at rest, but not everybody's like that. Not everybody needs to do that. You know, you can a lot of people can get that just by sitting quietly and breathing. I'm not one of those people.

 

Katie Kay 

No, I'm so glad that you shared that in it and I'm glad that you came from a scientific place as well because like, it's so true, that like, how little we know like we haven't been around for that long and if you think about 10 years, we were talking on this podcast about this stuff. Like people will be like those spirit like crazy ladies like woo like and like how far we have come and how far science is coming. Like I remember hearing that you can see that now there's scientific research you can see the energy emitting from a person's body and the color and and and I remember my yoga teacher trainer, Denise druce, she was like, I like we can see this with this machine. But I would say it goes much farther than what the machine is picking or whatever. Calling machine but whatever is seeing this energy and that just blew my mind because I was like, it's so true. Like it's so true. I mean, we don't know what, like how much we're we haven't learned yet. And I think if you're like, you're closed off to some of these maybe more spiritual things, it's like having that science that's already here. And you can i Melanie is like the most brilliant person to explain like you did such a brilliant job of explaining it from a scientific standpoint, but it's like, let yourself go have that protection of like blocking off the things that are unknown because yes, like that opens up to vulnerability, it opens you up to saying I don't know, it releases the protection of control. And the only reason I know this is because I personally experienced all of those things. And just like being able to be open and understand, like the vibration and energy and like the profound benefits and effects that it has on the human body. Like it's amazing. And I think about like this podcast, I want to express love and compassion and nurturing love hi has one of the highest vibrations out of any other emotion. You know, you think about like negativity or like, I like that example you're talking about, you just know that person that you don't like their energy if you can't be around them, or, like there's other low vibe, vibration, emotions and and so I choose in that way and I can look at that energy of the emotion I say, like hell yeah, I want to be in the vibration of love. Like that's a high vibration state if I can be in that, like that's going to be so profound for myself and for receiving and giving out love to the guests. And so I'm like, thank you so much for sharing that and your book and I just loved how you had that as a connection to the earth. And so I kind of like bring it full circle here as far as like, like being out in nature, if you maybe aren't ready for to go see therapy, or if you're like, energy healer is like way too woowoo. For me, like even just stepping out in nature. You know, there's science backing that vibration.

 

Melanie 

Yes, yes. This was a NASA scientist. Yeah,

 

 

I was shocked. This was not, this is not woowoo at all. But NASA

 

Melanie 

has gone really deep into energy, believe it or not really, yes. Interesting. They have I only know that because I am an I have a garden plot in Salt Lake City and a former NASA scientist is a gardener next to me. And he we have these talks like we I like to pick his brain about things like this, because he's so intelligent. But yeah, and you know, this is a paragraph out of the book. But what came to me as you were talking about this is think about, and I wrote this in the book, also the chance own is the same as the Earth's frequency.

 

Katie Kay 

I remember that. And I was like, Oh, that makes sense. Like, yeah,

 

Melanie 

it makes sense when you learn these things, all of a sudden, Oh, now I know what I'm saying. I'm right, wherever that frequency is. Really cool. And so Oh, you know what I was thinking. Also, while you're talking, I think we can give a big, this is where we can acknowledge our indigenous cultures. And you know, ohm is of Indian descent, right? And going back to ancestors and everything else, where I've spent so much time in southern Utah, and some of the cultures that I've learned a lot from are the Native Americans. And you know, they're, they're the culture I'm most familiar with is the Navajo. And their way of life is very oriented towards the rhythms of nature. And it's because they've continued to live close to it. So they have so much knowledge to share with us. And, and if you look at them in their relation to the land, and their Creator, they all have a creation story. And, and again, like I've learned a lot from them. I tried to share just a little bit of that in the book. And an acknowledge them and men being some of my teachers as well. And that Yeah, it's great that we have this science now. And if you're a person that needs that it's there. And that's what I hope to share in the book. But I also hoped, I also wanted to share experiences and that you know, that tradition of oral storytelling, which is how we learn from each other.

 

Katie Kay 

Yeah, yeah, and I I actually have My book right here open to that page of the Navajo because I was having this really amazing connection with what they were talking about the beauty and what they define as beauty. And they have this ceremony. And I thought about our perception of beauty and our body. And like, I had this thing come up in my head the other day, and it was like, make your body beautiful again. And I thought about the word beauty. And I can think like, that statement would be very triggering, if you're thinking about like, the outside beauty. But beauty could be, like, so many different definitions and can encompass like, the beauty and compassion. And I kind of think I'm thinking about Mac, like the iMac and who was the founder, I got Steve Jobs, Steve Jobs. And like, when he started the apple, he, like, wanted to bring beauty into like, the computer space. And yes, it was kind of this like outside beauty. But I think where he really nailed it was the inside beauty of his design of empowering creativity. And you can, you know, do all this amazing stuff on your computer now and design and, and so like, like, you can see my brain like I link so many different things together. But you're like, the way the Navajos related the beauty and that ceremony which I'm going to ask you that just describe for our listeners in a second. But like the beauty that we described in our body, and then like also the beauty in a Mac computer, like so silly that connect all of these three things, but like, why have we limited the name, the actual word of beauty to just be like the outside of what we see and what that represents, like, wow, like that chapter that you wrote on that can you just give us a little an intro into, like, what that ceremony was all about, and what kind of like those messages of what that actually means like the harmony and balance of beauty.

 

Melanie 

Sure, I'd be happy to and, and and as I do that acknowledging that the Navajo that my Navajo friends shared this with me, and gave me permission to share this in the book. And, you know, I want to be really sensitive to any of our bipoc listeners and, and the culture and the moment in time that we find ourselves in right now. And, and again, just acknowledge them and thank them for sharing this knowledge with us. And that you as you explain this concept of beauty being how we see ourselves on the outside is so one dimensional compared to the this beautiful concept of beauty that is the beauty way ceremony. And so the idea is that when a person is in a state of unwellness, which we know can encompass many things, right, it can be a mental state of spiritual state of physical state, that you're somehow out of harmony and oftentimes, we are out of harmony with our environments when that happens, which we've discussed already. So the idea is to go see the medicine man to be brought back into harmony into harmony within ourselves so that we can harmonize with our environment that doesn't mean our environment is not chaotic or doesn't have bad news every day or you know we have to live in this world and we have to learn how to do that in our own good vibe energy. So So what they do is they go to their medicine man seeking and he practices the Navajo beauty way ceremony on them and and I included the words in the book and and I even found as I was writing the book, I came across a German songwriter who sing a song to this, she put it to music, and that's on YouTube, and I think I linked to it in the book. You can't click on it in the book, but you can look it up.

 

Katie Kay 

But it'd be one day, maybe one day.

 

Melanie 

But yeah, it's really beautiful concept, isn't it that that beauty is not one dimensional is this beauty way ceremony is not about what you look like it could care less and but it's it's about seeking and being restored to harmony. And isn't it interesting that it requires the medicine man to guide you into that and so I'm preparing to go back to Southern Utah in a couple of weeks. And so I've been learning I've been kind of diving into some different readings again, I love studying about the indigenous ways of healing. And there's always a collective element to a healing process. So if not a teacher or a mentor or a medicine, man, it's a community effort. And and I'm also very fascinated about how, you know, I come from a family of military family. So my grandfather and several uncles were veterans, and we also have a lot of addiction and alcoholism in my family. And that's some of it as a result of these veterans coming home from war with PTSD and just trying to be at peace, right. And what we know is that indigenous cultures have a way of welcoming their warriors home and saying, we see you, we hear you, you're one of us, welcome home. That is so healing. And part of my idea of retreats and this concept of guide is that we need each other, and that we can accomplish a lot of healing together in in harmony with the land with each other with a guide, who wants to show the way, who still may be finding their way themselves as we all are in this journey. But not this concept of the all knowing, do what I say, you know, it's it's just a different, it's a different way of looking at things. And it really resonates with me as well. So I'm really happy to hear that you that you liked that and that you resonated with that chapter.

 

Katie Kay 

Yeah, I think that's such a beautiful way of coming for full circle, because you are a guide and surrendering to the guidance of nature. And then also opening up this book for other guides, other Mind Body practitioners and wellness teachers can use this and use this book and in whatever way that feels intuitive to them and take away whatever resonates. very amazing to be able to be a guide in this in this society. And this time where we need it the most, I would say, is there any last messages that you would like to tell the listeners and then let us know where we can connect with you and somebody wants to reach out and ask a question. And of course, I'll put all that in the show notes as well. But any last words that you would like to share?

 

Melanie 

Well, I want to say thank you, again, thank you for thank you for seeing how this work is relevant to the work that you're doing. And, and I'm glad for that and thank you for having the conversation it's so much fun to talk about with a like minded Mind Body person, you know, and you brought up such insightful angles to to look at this work. So thank you and thank you to your listeners for the opportunity as well and for being here and letting me share this with you and I just want to extend You know, my way of being a guide and my idea of being a good guide is extending an invitation. And, and I hope you'll find something that you like in the book, there's journaling activities as well to help you explore these realms for yourself. And if you are interested in you know, monetizing this sort of thing for your own business practice I've created a course out of it, which is available on my website at web well.com and that'll be in your show notes but yeah, I just invite you just to like Katie said like be open just be open to the journey of life and be compassionate love your body speak words of kindness to your body and and see it as the vehicle and the gift that you have to escort you through this life versus an adversary to fight with overweight or body composition or anything else like that and and you know we could go on and on and on and as someone who's experienced the visible injuries and the invisible injuries just you know know that you are not in this alone that you have people like Katie working really hard to share their experiences and their knowledge and keep looking and don't ever just don't ever allow yourself to reach a state where you feel all alone in this journey but reach out to somebody asked for help and and no and I guess we'll come full circle to my love of nature. You know, I've had a lot of lonely days myself and but I am never alone when I am outside and Mother Nature. And that's what I wanted to share. I'm one of those chapters as well as just that. I do feel loved out there. I do feel supported out there. I feel like I come into contact with my purpose and with my Creator out They're and so whatever that looks like to you there's you know that's again so personal but I would invite you to explore that and if that means going to the botanical garden or or a little garden plot or your little pot on the balcony and you know, get your hands in the dirt and connect with your ancestors and and just see where this journey takes you and reach out and say hello and, and I love to hear from people who've read my book. I love it. I can't even tell you how much that means to me. So you can connect with me. I have a private Facebook group called Mother Nature's gym online oasis. So I welcome you to find me there and on Instagram at soul fit adventure which is after the name of my first business and at web well, which I'm just getting started so you know what else I think that's I think I will put a pin in it for me.

 

Katie Kay 

Thank you, Melanie so much. That was truly the vibration of love. And thank you for that message and for being here and thank you listeners for spending the time being with us. I will see you all next week.

Katie Kay
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