51. The Role of the Nervous System: Fawning / Nischa Phair
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Nischa Phair is a researcher, educator, founder of SomaBody Pleasure Work and author of Fawn: When No Looks Like Yes. Today's episode is eye opening. We talk about people pleasing tendencies that shows up in the body through the nervous system as fawning. Nischa has been a trauma-informed teacher, facilitator and coach for 14 years, and has held space for the growth of over 2200 students and clients in that time. She is so knowledgeable on topics of trauma, body therapy, and sexual authenticity - which we get into all of these today! I can't wait for you to listen!
Episode Topics:
Defining Trauma
Nervous system regulation
What is fawning
How does fawning relate to co-dependency and people pleasing
Authentic sexuality
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GUEST CONTACT:
Website: www.nischaphair.com
Instagram: @nischaphair
Book: Fawn: When No Looks Like Yes
Nischa Phair
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to talk.
Katie Graham
Yeah, oh my gosh, this is such an exciting topic, we were just talking, before we jumped on the podcast, I just recently took a trauma informed yoga training class. And it's just so interesting to me learning about trauma, I just think it's like, it's a topic that is so valuable, and one that we don't talk about enough, especially when it comes to our body, even body image or even feels like they, you know, are trying to achieve a health goal. And maybe they're experiencing something deeper, and on the surface level, we can't really tell what's going on. But then once we understand a little bit more like some of those deeper roots, then we can understand ourselves more, and kind of step into what we really desire and become who we really want to become and show up in the world. So I'm really excited to dive into this topic with you, Nisha, can you just start by telling us about your work? And how did you start working in this niche.
Nischa Phair
So I'm an author, fawning, researcher, and trauma informed pleasure educator, I started this work 14 years ago in trauma informed yoga. And I want to say I really loved your intro there. To add on that I really believe that all forms of movement and practice must be trauma informed, because we are all carrying. So such a heavy load of traumatic stress, even if we're not aware of the emotional, physical, even sexual, and other forms of abuse that we may have sustained when we were young, or may not be able to relate to as abuse, because part of the effects of trauma is that it inhibits our awareness of ourselves and our circumstances. So all forms of movement and practice with any kind of practitioner must be trauma informed, because we are complex beings. And we all deserve to be respected, seen and have space held for us in a way that acknowledges and loves us in our complexity. So and that's really why I started doing this work, because I actually became a yoga teacher almost 15 years ago. And as soon as I got into the front of the room, I felt so uncomfortable. I've been practicing yoga for about 10 years prior to that. And it was a really big step for me to actually move into the space of being the voice of guidance for other bodies. And I just felt so uncomfortable that mine was the only voice in the room, I felt that it was wrong, that other people were just doing what I told them to do. And it made me realize, and it started me on this journey really have a lot of the research that I do. But a lot of the practices that we that we're drawn to, that we use to support us are actually practices that help us cope with hierarchical dynamics and imbalances of power, instead of learning how to dismantle them and work towards collaboration in all systems, whether they be in our families, in our communities, or in our society.
Katie Graham
Yeah, beautiful. I 100% agree that the concept of trauma is in all kinds of movement. And the more that we understand that and integrate it into our mindset and how we approach the body and how we approach our exercise. One thing that just really shocked me when I was taking the training is changing my whole understanding of what movement really is like the changing of the nervous system of being in the parasympathetic, and then shifting into the sympathetic and kind of this back and forth so that the body is actually learning how to regulate itself. And it's at that deeper level that we can bring out into our own lives and really be in this balanced state. And so can you maybe talk a little bit about normalizing the idea of trauma and maybe even defining trauma for us and, and telling us why it's so important for each of us to understand even if we haven't had a PTSD, or we're maybe more unaware of more complex trauma happening in our lives and background and maybe how we grew up, but how can we normalize trauma? And then can you define trauma for us as well?
Nischa Phair
I've been really looking at the past two to six years that we've been sort of muddling through as a civilization. And while so many of the things that have happened to us have been truly devastating, I think that the conversations that we're being guided towards, like this one, are ultimately going to lead to the normalization of trauma and to the D stigmatization of abuse and assault. You know, was Fred Rogers that said that if it's mentionable, it's manageable, the role of these conversations, and whether it's between two people or, you know, on a grander scheme as supporting us to manage these things that have been so taboo for a long time, specifically, looking at at trauma and abuse, in terms of defining trauma, you know, the trauma wasn't really understood or defined until the 70s, until the Vietnam War, vets came back to the States. And trauma informed care emerged out of a very ill equipped health system, attempting to make space for the physical, psycho emotional and spiritual complexities, that these soldiers were dealing with that they may have lost a limb, but that there were completely other spheres of their lived experience that had been wounded as well. So trauma initially, like for the last really 50 or 60 years, it started out as a conversation about something that happens in war. And over the course of the last many decades, it's become something we understand to be cumulative. So it can be an event, it can be an assault, or mugging, or, you know, something violent happening, it can be something we witness, it can be, you know, we can have built up trauma. So things like commuting every day for two hours, can be these kind of small traumas. So we can think about trauma as the inability on like a very body level, the inability to discharge or process the magnitude of what's coming in. So I like to think about it as like too much coming in, and not enough time or space in which to process it. So it's, it's a literal and physical overwhelming of our bodies, and nervous systems, too much information, total overload. And that can be again due to physical, sexual, emotional, or even substance abuse. And all of the knock on effects of that, right. So I really like to kind of open our conversations around trauma to really look at the load of traumatic stress that we might be carrying. And like I said, In the beginning, I think that the most important part and I know we'll get to this when we talk about fawning is that the effect of our nervous systems being triggered, causes an inhibition of our awareness, it shuts down our language center, it shuts down our executive functioning. And it literally makes us less aware of ourselves in our circumstances, we can become desensitized at the body level. So it feeds denial. This is how denial is created in our relationships and our families and our society. So talking about trauma, we really kind of have to like pull it threads, little bit by little bit to get to this place where we can start to see the tapestry as a whole, if that makes sense.
Katie Graham
Yeah, that's a beautiful way of explaining it. Looking at my own life, I would have never thought that I would be experiencing trauma in my body. And as I've gone through my own self growth, and going to therapy, and and doing my trainings through yoga teacher training, the more that I can see how much trauma actually do hold in my body and how much I have held for a really long time. And what you were talking about is it kind of cuts us off from the person that I really want to be it cuts me off from being this creative person and having spontaneity and, you know, feeling like I can achieve my desires and all of those things. You know, I thought before it was just kind of something maybe I wasn't good enough or maybe there was something in the It'll be wrong and me. And so it's like, what you're talking about, it's kind of like pulling those threads of like trying to kind of understand yourself more. It's almost say, you know, relief to understand that I do hold trauma. And I felt like, I should be perfect, right? Like, I had a great life, I am privileged, you know, the color of my skin, my abundance, wealth, all of those things, you know, where I grew up, I feel very grateful for everything that I have in my life. But then at the same time, I had this like, deep feeling in the pit of my stomach that I just couldn't, like, I couldn't let go up. And I couldn't figure out why I couldn't get to the next step and why it couldn't, you know, just be my authentic self. And I think that, and I, as I learned more and more, I think a lot of people struggle with that. And so that is why I think it's just really important to talk about this topic. Because even if you don't think maybe you have trauma in your body, or you don't think that there's some deeper things going on, I would just invite, invite this conversation as something that maybe they can resonate with my story. And then they can bring in more self awareness into our conversation as far as like, understanding that trauma can be something we all carry, even if you haven't had a specific event happened to you.
Nischa Phair
I really like you bring that lens, helping us look through that lens, because I think it's actually a really great segue into talking about fawning, you know, what you're really talking about is to staining nervous system responses, right? That is what that's what's happening on the body level, when we experience someone or something that threatens our authenticity, our safety, our nervous systems are triggered. This is why I say authenticity isn't a nice to have, or a trend at the biological imperative. Because if I'm not feeling safe to be who I am, as I am, my body is necessarily going to trigger a stress response in order to deal with that lack of safety. Right? So you can have this perfect upbringing, because we live in this world, where at the way your body looks, the you know, the size of your thigh gap, your nose, whatever, we have all of these messages coming in telling us that we're not good enough. We're still carrying all of that that's traumatic stress, right? That's triggering our nervous systems to create these responses, these body level responses that are they have their own neurochemical, psycho emotional signature. And they're really, I think, a really important thing to understand, especially for people living in female bodies. Is that right? At the age of seven, when we start going through puberty, we get this burst, and estrogen. And that person, estrogen makes us more aware of ourselves more wherever our bodies are aware of our relationships makes us more aware of our surroundings. And when our surroundings are filled with, again, really unrealistic beauty standards or, you know, lack of safety and relationships, misogyny, when we're walking around and being told on a daily basis that were not safe. we internalize this lack of safety. And in addition to that, we also this all the hormonal changes, as well as the brain development that happens as we go through puberty predisposes us to people pleasing behaviors. And a lot of these behavioral changes that happen through puberty will last to adulthood. Some of us may never get the chance to the privilege to be able to correct them for ourselves. So and that's just the biological piece. The other piece, and this is why again, I think it's so important that you bring in this issue of not having like big T trauma in your life, because our social conditioning of gender teaches women to play small and play safe to not rock the boat. Don't get too big for your boots, don't be, you know, making anybody uncomfortable. Right. So while all of these body level changes are happening to us, we are literally being told by the world to repress our authenticity, to silence ourselves to not step forward and be the people that we came here to be. So I think that by the time we get to, you know, being adult people, there's a lot to unpack there and so a lot of the work that I do. And what I really hope the book to achieve is to support people to not only be more than their biology, but to be more than their conditioning, right, and to be more than all of the psycho emotional knock on effects of our upbringing of being raised in an oppressive society, you know, encountering difficult relationships along the way. So it's really biopsychosocial. Mix, you know, when we start to unpack the effects of living in the world that we live in?
Katie Graham
Oh, my gosh, you said that so eloquently. Thank you for explaining that. I feel like I just, yeah, I loved how you're how you explain that. And that's exactly how I feel. That's social conditioning. We're all subjected to it. And especially at a young age, we're not able to look at it and choose for ourselves choose differently. We're just the pawns in the in the social scheme. And so having that on repeat over and over again, that is what's creating trauma. Is that can I say that correctly?
Nischa Phair
Yeah, I mean, it, that's what's triggering us to run these fawning patterns. So the thing about trauma and our nervous system responses generally, is that they aren't fixed destinations, they all happen on a spectrum. So the other piece about, you know, the way our nervous systems function is that we can be a little bit funny, we can mix it in with some fight flight, we can throw in a little bit of, you know, freezing and shutting down whatever it takes to get through the particular situation. So we might have like, a different recipe for work, different recipe for intimate relationships, different recipe for family. And they're all part of how we learn to survive. So it's really, really, really nuanced. And I'm trying to kind of give a real general picture because it is it is complex, it's our responses are as complex as we are. But the most important thing to understand is that we are not our stress responses, we are not our trauma, we are that which is capable of observing ourselves and our responses and choosing more sophisticated
options for ourselves. I guess the question around trauma and fawning, we'll come back to that. I feel like I feel like you might have a question for me. So I'm gonna just sit back like,
Katie Graham
Yeah, I do. I guess first I want to say just thank you for bringing in the subjectivity of it as well, right? We're all different. And I remember my teacher, John Solomon, who's amazing. And she taught the younger and informed yoga teacher training is that somebody Saturday night, could be somebody else's trauma. Saturday night, right? So somebody else is just relaxed, Saturday night could be somebody else's trauma. We're all subjective. And we all have different lenses from which we see the world. And so I'm glad that you brought that point in because it's very subjective. And so we don't know what's truth until we really look within and bring in that kind of curiosity and investigation and understand that it doesn't have to be a right or wrong situation, or black and white. So I just want to make that point, kind of highlight that because I thought that was really important what you said. And I do want to ask your right, I want to ask about the fawning. That was one thing in the training, I was like, so taken aback from I was just like that I really related to so could you just explain what is fawning for somebody that doesn't know? And how is that integrated in the trauma response?
Nischa Phair
So fawn is one of our many stress responses. And when we talk about stress responses, I have a great little diagram of this in the book, but they really happen in what's called a stress response cascade. So you can think of I love to use the example of like, when you're going along, you're doing your grocery shopping, and then someone comes up behind, you know, a corner and startles you. Right? That startle response is the trigger for just about any stress response cascade. From that response, we don't move into fight flight, we might move into freeze we might move into fun or faint or flop and complete shutdown. So this immobilization response is one of two immobilization responses is how our bodies decide okay, So my boundaries are either being threatened or completely invaded? And how am I going to cope with what's come into my my space? So is it a friend or foe? Is it you know, a physical threat or an emotional threat. And based on that split second immobilization response, we get heightened visual sound acuity. And we're able to gather all of this information about what we need to know to stay safe. That's how we'll decide which of the different doors we will go through in order to protect ourselves and stay safe in a situation. Some kind of going in like last to first in terms of the questions. So that stress response cascade, within this cascade, we have two systems, two nervous systems that work in conjunction with one another, the parasympathetic, and the sympathetic. Now, the sympathetic is aligned with fight flight, which we all know looks like running away and fleeing, but can also feel like anxiety and panic. The parasympathetic nervous system is very special, because a lot of our conversations around parasympathetic are used to talk about how we feel when we're really relaxed when we feel really available when you know, there is no cause for alarm. But the parasympathetic nervous system also has this really, really sneaky, ancient evolutionary offshoot, which is what is in charge of freeze fawn, flop and faint, so all of our submissive responses. So when we're talking about fawn, as a response, we're really talking about a dynamic between two or more people, the triggers and intimidation submission response. So fawn is uniquely hierarchical, it's uniquely social, we only find with other people we don't find with a falling tree branch or an oncoming car in traffic, right? It's a very that hypo arousal piece is really important to to look at because of the way it affects our lived experience. So when I experience hyper arousal, a few things happen. I'll probably a feel more submissive in my body, they'll usually be some contraction, inwards towards midline of my body, I make myself smaller, I might see my you might see someone's gaze kind of turn away. Again, because I've lost connection to my language center, I might not be able to communicate fully. I might just say, Oh, no, it's fine. And go along with something in that way. Because I don't have access to my executive functioning and my decision making you actually say actually, that's really not going to be very good for me, and my health and well being so no, we're not going to do that. Right. So that hierarchical submission, intimidation, relationship is really the linchpin that holds all forms of bonding together. So another thing that can sometimes help people relate to it. A lot of people are very familiar with codependence codependency and relationships, and codependency is what we see on the outside. Those are all the behaviors what it looks like the ways we're able to relate to it, but finding is what's happening at the tissue level. That fawn responses what's taking place in order to fuel those codependent type relationships and and dynamics. How was that?
Katie Graham
How was beautifully said? Can you explain a little bit deeper into codependency the difference between codependency and fawning?
Nischa Phair
I don't think there is a difference. I think that fight codependency is what we see on the outside but finding is what is happening to the body is on a subconscious level. So this intimidation submission dynamic is the crux of every codependent relationship. And what's fascinating is that when you look at the way these two nervous systems are responding to one another, usually one's in hyper arousal and the other one is hypo arousal. So this is the other piece when we're talking and this is very heteronormative. I will admit, sort of statement that our resume fight flight triggers fawning and performing fawning and shutting down because fight flight is very intimidating. It's really big, it's loud. And you know, there's usually a lot of voicing and yelling and and imposing someone's body into someone else. A space and submission response, which again, is firing and shutting down, freezing is how we survive that intimidation. And so we might placate, we might say, oh, make your favorite dinner or oh, you know, try and, and a big common one that we see in relationships is when someone who might be on a more aggressive side, and this is, again, in either codependent or unhealthy relationships, particularly in intimate partner violence situations, it's not uncommon for the abused partner to use those moments of aggression as, okay, what can I do to make them not hurt me? What can I do to make them stop throwing things stop punching walls, and often, you know, sexual advances and turning trying to turn someone on will be a way that people resort to is a way to kind of get them to, to calm down and to stop harming themselves or their family members.
Katie Graham
Yeah, so a light bulb going off when you were talking, that makes so much sense to me. And I think it's because and I'm sure a lot of listeners can relate to me is that I am that kind of stereotype, I feel like I fall in to that people pleasing, and to just like being submissive. And I feel like looking back at my childhood, I just think that to make it easy, and to just follow along was the best way. And as a kid, like, of course, we feel that way, right? And so just kind of at the same time giving up my own identity, and just kind of following what other people told me to do, or wanting me to do. And even if I was saying, like, oh, I want to go into engineering school, or oh, I want to do this. on a subconscious level, I think I was doing it for other people, because I thought that's what they wanted me to do. And that and that's how I'm more likeable. And I also see that now more in my adult life of finding toward or idealizing other people more than myself. So looking up to, you know, certain yoga teachers, or certain mentors or authors or whoever. Because I'm looking for somebody tell me like, this is what you should be doing. This is how you should be thinking. And it wasn't until recently in the last few years of understanding, like an asking, you know, asking, like, I want that confidence for myself, and I don't know what's wrong, I don't know how to get it. And then like I will, the first step I took was just going back to therapy. And I told the therapist, I was like, I don't really know, like, I just know that I'm not showing up for my life in the way that I want to. And so I need you to, you know, back me up, and help me through this. And so as I go through this process more and more, like it was each little step that I'm finding my own way, and I'm finding that it's okay to have conflict, and it's okay to show up for yourself and ask, you know, ask for your own needs in a place of not just fully in a broken down state, like I don't have to be in this like depression and curled up in a ball to ask for my needs, I can ask for my needs prior and an empowered place and be like, I need this for me. And that's okay. It's okay to be happy in that place. So I just I'm like, I'm reflecting back on my own life. And hopefully the listeners can as well relate to some of these things, because I think we're all subject to social conditioning. And we all like we're good people, right? We want to follow what other people need us to do. And so it's a it's not a bad trait, right? We're heart centered people. But the one thing I want to go off of this is understanding so when you're talking about the codependency and the fawning of, okay, the codependency is kind of on the outside, it's our skin, it's where like right in front of us, we're how we're acting, and then the fawning is kind of more of that, like, it's the internal, it's like the body base. And so my question and you were saying, you know, their inner, like, they're the same thing, right? Like they're, it's just kind of how we're seeing it. My question is, is when we go into kind of that therapy, I know that there's talk therapy, right, which I think is really helped with my codependency He, on the outside standing up for myself asking for my own needs. And then there's the body based therapy, that your body actually needs a different type of therapy to heal from it. And you actually can't do that therapy through talk therapy. So can you talk a little bit about? How do we heal the body? And how do we from the fawning? How do we heal from that trauma?
Nischa Phair
Yeah, so this is, this might be the most beautiful and self affirming part of the healing process. This healing our bodies, because no therapist can do it. For us. It's something that we can only do for ourselves, it must be self directed. In that self directed process, I teach myself and all my 30 trillion cells, all my organ systems that I have agency, I get to say now that I have choices, that I can collaborate with myself, to move myself forward in life have healthier relationships, I proved myself through my own lived experience in my own choice making about my lived experience that I'm safe. And, you know, because fawning only happens when we don't feel safe again, all of our stress responses, they're only triggered because someone has either threatened or boundaries or has come in to invade them, right. So the fastest, most complete and direct way to support ourselves to unlearn these fawning patterns is to help our bodies feel safe. So the cue that I use I, while my training and background is in, you know, all the polyvagal theory and experiential anatomy and trauma theory, I really work to make it all relevant for people no matter what their background or educational level is. So the cues that I use, I use to one is finding somatic comfort. So finding that place where your tissues feel like there's ease, so whatever that is for you, if that's running, if that's hanging out with your pet, if it's making pottery or writing in your journal, whatever those practices or habits activities are, that give you a sense of true somatic comfort, do more of that. The other one is coming into your pleasure body. So we might be more aware of our pleasure body when we're being physically intimate with someone or having an orgasm. But our nervous systems don't have different pathways or systems for processing, sensual pleasure versus sexual pleasure. All right, we aren't compartmentalised as much as religion and the world wants us to be, it's all the same body take the same body into the bedroom as we do the kitchen to make dinner. Right. So coming into your pleasure body is an experience you can have in a bathtub. It's an experience you can have while you're taking a walk in the forest, watching a sunset, cuddling with a loved one. So these two practices are invitations, these cues. They're experiential, but they have the exact same effect of stimulating vagal tone and activating our parasympathetic nervous system or the term I prefer because it's a somatic, more somatic language is inviting us into parasympathetic ground. We know we're in parasympathetic ground because it feels grounded and peaceful, right. So the more we can prove to our bodies or tissues on a cellular level, that we are actually safe, that there isn't a monster that standing over our shoulder. The more time we spend in that mode of our nervous systems where not only do we feel safe, but we feel more available to life. It's in parasympathetic ground or somatic comfort, your pleasure body, whichever
language feels most relevant or or accessible to where we are most available to other people. When we are in this more emotionally regulated state, we listen really well. It's a lot easier to open to connection with partners. We feel more creative, but to pick up on your point earlier about the importance of connecting with our truth. It's in parasympathetic ground where we are, like mainlining the truth of who we are and who, what our authenticity is. And it's only when we're being pulled out of parasympathetic background that we feel like I'm not good enough, I need to do more, be more, get more in order to be safer. Okay? So I like to another little one of my little quotes is that your pleasure body is a truth teller. And it's an inhospitable environment for self hate. So it is physically impossible while you're, you know, enjoying your walk watching a sunset when you're walking through the woods when you're having an orgasm, but no time ever, in all of our history, has anyone been like, oh my god, I hate my body. Right? Because you're feeling so connected to the truth of who we are in the present moment, which is, which is goodness, or indestructible goodness.
Katie Graham
So if there's somebody listening, and they're having some maybe aha moments, like, this sounds like me, you know, people pleaser? What would you say to them? Just like, what you were just talking about some simple exercises. But how do we deal also with that mindset, like, I can just imagine me, you know, a few years ago, and if I were here talking with you, and getting some aha moments, I think in my mind, I'd be like, Oh, it sounds really overwhelming. Like, I'm not sure you know, how to move through some of the, these tendencies that I have, in my mindset of following you know, what other people need me to do? And it's a lot, right. Like, it's a lot because you've built your life on this, like you've built, you know, everything on this. So what would you recommend for them? Just to start with?
Nischa Phair
Yeah. So, you're right, it is a lot of programming to try and untangle. Um, you know, I I've been on my journey, my healing journey has been about 30 years long. I first started when I was 15. And I'll be 45 in June. And I, I had I didn't have a lot of success. In talk therapy, I've always been a very kinesthetic person, very body based. And so as soon as I found Cymatics, and somatic therapy, that was just like the gold for me, because when we work at the body level, we're taking care of everything. Right. That is why working through body based healing modalities is faster, more direct, more complete, and it's inherently self directed. So I think that would be the one thing is to trust your body and trust yourself. The other concept philosophy that I that I teach is that of choice full rebellion. When you've lived a life of a lot of fawning tendencies, and you've spent your relationships, diminishing yourself, diminishing your own boundaries, making your needs less important than others. The most important thing for us to start the process is for there to be space for us to open into, right, because when, when I'm finding and again, at a body level, I don't just repress my needs and my boundaries, I repress my authenticity. And it's very interesting, instead of it being sort of part of my overall expression, because funding is protective. It's like I'm squirreling it away inside, pushing it down, down, down, down, so that it can't be hurt by people who aren't capable of seeing and accepting, right. So in order for my authenticity, to be able to breathe, and thrive and move in the world, there needs to be space for it to move into. So choice full rebellion is one of the ways that we can start to make space in a world and a life and relationships that aren't giving us any. So choice will rebellion is a practice of non harming self loving action. And so it can be as simple as you know, learning to say no, but I think sometimes that like oh, just say no is really difficult if you've been running this program. So the idea of taking that extra step of rebelling against your circumstances can be a little bit easier for people to say, Okay, well, this thing, whatever it is, is encroaching upon my temporal boundaries. I don't have time for self care because of this aspect of work or family or what have you. Push back. Just make space in your life. Whether it's, you know, saying no to friendships that aren't nourishing you or saying no to people or practices. It aren't feeding you because the real truth of it is, is that if it's not feeding you, it's feeding on you. Right. So the more we can clear the plate of things that aren't nourishing make room to actually be able to be fed by the things that are.
Katie Graham
That's a beautiful way of saying it. And I'm so glad that you brought up our relationships, because I find that my relationships in my life are the is like a spiritual assignment. It's like the hardest, right? Anything I'm trying to work on, it will show up in my relationships. And for me, you know, wanting to take care of my loved ones and wanting to be a people pleaser, and show up how they want me to, it kind of works against me in a way of just like, I guess, you know, showing up for my own needs, but it's reflected back to me and I really in my relationships, so it's really helped me to kind of see my relationships as a form of this is a kind of a growth opportunity for me. And the conflicts are showing up because I haven't healed something in myself. And so it's a really good mirror for me. But I also know, like, I've just I have the hardest time with relationships, because I'm sure it's you know, that trauma response we were just talking about is I want that fight or flight, I want to, you know, run away. But at the same time, like my people pleasing, I want to stay and I want to take care of them. And so I have this internal conflict. And I just push it down, like what you're talking about, just push it keep pushing it down into my body. And so if I, once I started kind of seeing that as these relate these people, like in my life, they love me, and I can trust that they love me and they want to be there to take care of me. First and foremost, I think that's the first step, you have to see that there's we're all good hearted at the center. And without the ego, right? We're all there, as spirit as soul beings that all we want, really each of us is to give and receive love. And so what bringing kind of that as my foundation. And then secondly, as conflicts arise, it's not about the other person, right? If they're telling me something, they want me to do something, I want to run away or whatever. So it's not the conflict actually not about them. But the ego wants it to be about them, they want my ego wants to put the blame on the other person. But really, it's just a reflection back into me. And it's an opportunity for me to heal, whatever is going on inside. And I love that mirror. And just that ability of seeing that because then it's like, I have the control now, right, all of my judgments on to their other relationships. They're my own judgments. And I have control of healing them and moving into a better space. And I absolutely loved how you're talking about space for, for us to open up into. Because I really think that's like the most valuable thing is being able to open up more space and sometimes just a little shift in perspective. And perspective allows us to kind of drop into something that has more possibilities and has more options. And I guess the reason I wanted to bring this up is just because I think like that's been helpful in my life as a codependent and dealing with my people pleasing tendencies and the fawning. And, and so I wanted to bring that up for the listeners. And I also want to talk a little bit more about relationships if you wouldn't mind sharing more into because I know a lot of your work is with sexuality is with sensuality. Can you share a little bit about how did you get into that and how does that interrelate with the fawning? I know you talked already a little bit about that. Can you share and maybe elaborate a little bit more?
Nischa Phair
Sure, thanks. I think you offered a really lovely introduction into this little topic on relationships and I'm I'm really love the way you framed it. And the one thing that I think when we're talking about finding and relationships that because personal responsibility is everything right and cultivating self awareness, but the true trap that people with finding tendencies can sometimes fall and fall into is taking response too much responsibility on for themselves. The other one is being a good little healer or being a good little seeker. And we can, you know, like you're saying, Give these coaches or yoga teachers or even like, you know, God's Spirit universe herself more power than ourselves and in that creative finding relationship within spirituality or, you know, however, we any form of relationship really. So, I think the goal, I suppose with any of this is not just, I mean, secure relationships, ultimately, I guess that's the one thing I kind of wanted to pick up off, what you were saying is that, yes, relationships offer us these beautiful containers to grow. And I think it's so important for us to be really honest about whether the other person has the capacity to meet us where they are, do they have the skills? Do they have the self awareness? Or am I just doing like self growth, through suffering, right, by subjecting myself to someone who really does not have the self awareness or the skills or the the willingness to learn more about how to be the kind of partner I need, not just in terms of our emotional intimacy, but particularly in terms of sexual intimacy? So to answer your question about where I, how I got into this, I, I'm a developmental trauma survivor, myself I in 2014, and an abusive relationship. And that was sort of the time that I really had to get real with myself, I, like I said, been on a journey since I was 15. But it was only ending that relationship that I realized that if I want the kind of partner the kind of love and if I want to be able to contribute in the way that I know that I came here to contribute, I really need to get to the bottom of my relational trauma. And so I started to do a lot of sexual reclamation work with myself. And I'd been doing embodiment coaching at that point for about eight years. And I started shifting into more pleasure and nervous system. Work with my clients. And what I realized both through an experience that I had with a casual sex encounter, and in talking to my clients was that this fawn response was being triggered more often than we were willing to admit. And not only was it being triggered, but it was completely normalized, that the idea of, you know, particularly female bodies, being submissive to a man's need for sexual gratification is a story is all this time, right? The whole like, oh, it's your duty to love your partner and and meet their every women need for sex. And this is something that, you know, someone would have been told outright, and some young female dating coaches are still spouting this on the internet, which just boils my blood only a little bit by little, I mean, a lot. So this idea of there being an equality, within inside our bedrooms is something that we really haven't looked at. So that was really the the impetus for writing the book was to not just explore fawning as a stress response, but to explore how it's really creating so much rest in our relationships, it's preventing us from being able to show up authentically for ourselves for our partners or families, but also, it's preventing us from being we came here to be right, if I can't show up as my authentic self, and my partner doesn't see the value of me being my authentic self of exploring my authentic sexuality, then they're depriving the world of my gifts of my talents of everything that I came here to do.
Katie Kay
Interest so interesting. So how do we show up more authenticity, authentic? How do we show up more authentically in our sexual relationship?
Nischa Phair
I think there's two. Well, it's two prong but ultimately, one, one massive shift. I think that if we change this one thing, it would change all of our relationships, particularly our sexual ones, or all aspects of our relationships. And that's compassion, having compassion and empathy for who we are as sexual beings, for the fact that our partner's bodies hold the story of every experience they've ever had, every breath they've ever breathed, really appreciating the fact that we're not just these meat sacks, we're souls and we have emotions and dreams, and who we are in bed is who we're going to be in life. And that person in bed deserves as much respect and as much compassion as the person making dinner or the person talking to kids in at night or the person leading, leading the board meeting.
Katie Graham
Yeah, that makes sense. And so it's when we are performing in bed, that is the fawning because we are trying to please the other person and the other person is number one, in that instance, and I can see how sexuality is like such a highlight for that fawning, especially when we're in such a vulnerable state. In the bedroom.
Nischa Phair
Yeah, and then there's the other piece of it is that sexuality for most people, is performed because sexuality is so repressed. So we perform the version of sexuality that social media tells us is acceptable that Victoria's Secret tells us is acceptable that we've seen on our TV screens and movies. For, you know, as long as we was, I mean, all that messaging starts from our kids and cartoons when you think I was raised in the 80s, and 90s. And so many of those little cartoon characters were completely sexualized, you know, they had unrealistic body types that they were wearing, you know, scantily clad clothing. So, the idea that we have an authentic sexuality is really, it's very new. And I really teach it as a form of activism. But, you know, again, like choice for rebellion, pushing back against an oppressive society telling you that you, your body has to be a certain way that you need to be able to, you need to be doing a certain kind of sexual act, in order to be acceptable, you need to, you need to groom your pubic hairs in a certain way, or all someone isn't gonna want to date you. You know, and there's research to prove that that is actually true. So yeah, I think that this idea of authentic sexuality really has to come from a very embodied place, a place of truth, a place of that's deeply loving of self. And that's why I think it's so important that we choose partners who are capable of accepting us in that authenticity and don't want to see us as just an accessory to act out their sexual fantasies or or gratification, which, you know, again, is part of how sexuality is conditioned for people in male bodies. Right? They've been taught to expect to a male pornographic fantasy when they grow up, and then they grow up and find out that it's not true. And so they're experiencing their own pain and frustration with that as well. Mm hmm.
Katie Graham
Yeah. Yeah, that's hard. It's hard to think about, if you're already in a relationship with somebody, and you've already built years and years of a certain behavior, and I mean, it could be sexual, or it could just be anything else like it could be with their family. I've personally thought about this a lot recently, as I've as I've changed and grown through things that I no longer want to hold on to and certain personality traits and, and it's hard to present change to the people in your life, because they've held on to a certain image of who you are for so long, and you've you know, aided and abetted in this same image. And so there's also I think there's some shame wrapped up in it as well as shame and maybe even grief of letting go of parts of yourself that are maybe not the letting go but the grief of what you've already lost in yourself the grief of you living so many years of, of living a certain way or being a certain person that you weren't really Super fond of, and you wanted to be better. And so I think that's also wrapped up in it, because that can just prevent your own self from wanting to show up differently. And then there's also the relationship part where there's people in your life that are expecting you to be a certain way. How would you give advice as far as, like, changing, but also approaching the people in your life and bringing in more compassion? And maybe even just like, what are those ways that we can start to be more authentically sexual, and approach our partners in that way.
Nischa Phair
So I love that you brought in the fact of people expecting you to be a certain way, because so often when we're particularly in families, or long term relationships. Our nervous systems kind of grow together, right. And behavior is really, you know, a bit of an oversimplification, but the behaviors and the attitudes that we see, and that we can perceive in a person or in a relationship dynamic, are the effect of our nervous systems being triggered, or not. Right. So when we're thinking about how a dynamic functions, we're really talking about, you know, two, or four, or six different nervous systems that are all kind of, like tangled together, and they've built their identities and how they, you know, navigate the world around each other. And it is, you know, I like to say that when we experience a loss of identity, it's not, you know, psycho emotional or psychosomatic, our nervous systems perceive that as a threat to life. Because if we don't have, if our identity is shaken, or, you know, torn apart by some event, or you know, releasing of repressed memories, for example, our ability to navigate the world as we have done up until that point, is threatened, right, because how I am and who I am in the world is what I do to stay safe and alive. So it's challenging because the other person has to be as invested in you as you are, as I am, as we are in mutuality, and growth. So my partner needs to value my well being, they need to value who I am, and what I came here as a soul to contribute, and to do my purpose. And they need to be able to see me holding on to the past, isn't just preventing my partner, or my daughter or my whoever, from growing, it's preventing me from growing, it's preventing the world from benefiting from whatever that growth, that authentic sexuality, that coming home to self and coming into wholeness with self is going to do for you know, the family, the community, the world. So it takes it takes awareness and I think it takes a lot again, like coming back to compassion and empathy and actually being able to see people as separate to ourselves and that's where the codependency piece can come in. Because we don't because our nervous systems are constantly triggered, we don't actually see the other person is separate, we see them as needing to either like, you know, satisfy our needs or help us you know, continue on our little nervous system rollercoaster, right, because we're all addicted to our hormones and our neurotransmitters and we all know that stuff. So yeah, I think it takes it takes really clear and compassionate communication. Having a couples therapist who is familiar with how fawning dynamics works. Work primary is essential. And that's one thing that is not very common, and I think it's something that I really hope that this book helps to educate folks and because every single one of my clients who came to me to get help to recover from funding and their relationships, they all went to therapists, multiple therapists sometimes and not one of them. I did And to find the thing that was like, just staring them right in the face. And I could see completely clearly that like, you have an intimidation submission dynamic being triggered constantly. One individual is fawning because the other person won't see them as being person worthy of getting to live an authentic and individuated life. So yeah, that that's a really important piece to just getting support from someone who's equipped to support the couple.
Katie Graham
That's beautiful advice. Thank you, Nisha, that is so helpful. And when you're talking, it reminded me of singing about one thing that I keep in my mindset is, if I'm holding myself back, I'm also holding the people I love back as well. I think that when I grow, and I step more into my light, I can be a better version of myself. And then it's also spreading that light to the people in my life. And so when it gets hard, and when I have to face conflict, or I have to show up for my own needs, that's something that brings me a little bit more relief and knowing that I'm taking responsibility not only for myself, but also for my loved ones. Even if in that situation, they're not certainly pleased with me, you know, needing to do something different or not following along or following what is quote unquote, right. But I can No, I can see that I am in the long run, growing them just as much as I'm growing myself. So I think that's one kind of mindset thing that I always kind of rely on to just keep myself centered in that heart space. So yeah, just kind of add on to what you were saying. The last thing that I want to talk about is your Soma body work. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Nischa Phair
Yeah. So somebody pleasure work was is a system that I created, because I saw a bit of a gap in the market. So earlier, I was talking about how I started my sexual reclamation process in 2014. And I was a trauma informed practitioner prior to entering into that space. And I was doing workshops and taking some courses and just kind of like standing back being like, Oh, dang, this is really not trauma informed. Like I can't believe that person just said that. And um, just a lot of these were more spiritually based sacred sexuality type courses. And they really were not supportive or actually say they didn't consider the effects of these programs on people with sensitive nervous systems, people with nervous system injuries, with nerve diversity. There's all of those folks and even just people who identify as being highly sensitive. A lot of these systems of sexual reclamation, sacred sexuality. They're really deeply stimulating for our bodies and our nervous systems. And one of the goals, the intentions purposes of them is to bring repressed emotional content up to the surface. So I had I modulated my experience the whole way through and I can't even imagine what would have happened to me had I not had that awareness of knowing how to modulate and be more truthful about how I use some of the recommendations and practices. But I still had a very serious if you call it like an activation, where I had two years of chronic dysregulation that triggered a deep well of of trauma, repressed memories for me. I lost work because of it. I had a, you know, when we talk about loss of identity, it was it was devastating. The effects and the process out of that is how, where I came up with the where I realized that there was a need for something that was trauma informed, that was gentle, that was supportive to people who want Need to do this work but wanted to do it in a way that felt safe and self directed. So, in talking about some of my experiences, I inevitably got people who had had the exact same retraumatization experiences in similar programs. So I knew that this is a thing that was happening. And unfortunately, you know, this is pretty niche stuff. And because it's not well understood, and spirituality tends to get a pass in terms of not needing to, you know, abide by the same kind of regulations and adherence to best practices that other forms of well being care and treatment do, which I really would like to see change. Again, this is just like more reason why everything needs to be trauma informed. And knowing that trauma informed does not mean being informed that the fact that trauma exists, right. We can know about trauma, but actually being responsible to our students, clients and practitioners about how we disseminate practices and information and knowing how they're going to affect sensitive nervous systems is the most important piece. So yeah, it's somebody came about through those experiences, it's nondenominational. Mostly experiential based, I use a lot of Cymatics polyvagal theory, to guide people to find whatever their version of authentic sexuality is. So it's, like I said, very experiential. We're not saying I'm not putting vibrators in people's hands, or telling people to going, you know, do whatever is on this ladder, the other influencers hit list of, you know, sexual bucket list items, it's more of a self discovery process of what is my relationship to pleasure?
What do I want pleasure to be for me? And how do I want my experience of pleasure to support me in every other area of my life. So it's a little bit more, like I said, gentle, but it's also more, I suppose, philosophically, you could say and that it's opening up, the conversations talk about pleasure as a more integrated part of the human experience, if that makes sense. As opposed to just being this tiny, little closeted thing that we do in the shower, or five minutes before we go to bed or the 2.6 times a week, we have sex with a partner, maybe, right? To really open, open that field up and see where we're denying ourselves pleasure and other areas of our lives. Because again, our nervous systems don't have a different mode for sexual and sensual pleasure. It's all the same.
Katie Graham
I'm really glad that you hold space for that kind of work. Like I, I hear you talking about it. And I'm just like, it is so needed. It's so needed for each of us. And I don't I don't think it's talked about enough. And so I'm so glad that you offer that kind of work for people. And, yeah, and just allowing that trauma informed to bring in more sensitivity and understanding and just knowing that we all come from different perspectives and, and bringing in more compassion. So I just love that, Nisha. So at the end of our shell, I always love to ask the guests, what are their daily wellness practices? So what are the ways that you take care of yourself on a daily basis?
Nischa Phair
So I have, and this is something that I invite my clients to do, and anyone can do this is free. revamped my life to become a kind of pleasure obstacle course. So I have certain practices, I do a lot of self touch. First thing in the morning, just essential self touch. And that's a big one and movement. So those are sort of self care practices, but the revamping your life to a pleasure obstacle course is probably one of the most transformative, I think that that my clients experience. So it means putting pleasurable things in your way whether it's, you know, leaving diffuser on in the laundry room with your favorite essential oil so that whatever's happening in your brain, when you walk into the laundry room, it's interrupted by the aroma have whatever is your favorite essential oil, finding, leaving a really nice lip balm by your desk, just having things surrounding yourself with reminders, to come back home to yourself, to experience yourself and, again, come home to your pleasure body to find those moments of somatic comfort. Because we're talking about self care versus self compassion, we're really looking at shifting from doing practice, to being practice, right? So instead of making our self care these like things that we, you know, tick off on a list, it's a way of being with ourselves that inspires gentleness, and self compassion, and, again, invites us to spend more time in somatic comfort.
Katie Graham
I absolutely love that response was so beautiful. Do you have like a list of? Or maybe on your website or something of practices and pleasure practices that you recommend? Or is there a way that we can kind of maybe get some ideas?
Nischa Phair
Mm hmm. Well, there's a ton in the book. Almost at the end of every chapter, there are various different cultural practices. I do have, by the time, when is this going to be going out? A few
Katie Graham
weeks from now. So I think end of May. Yep.
Nischa Phair
All right. So I am just, I'm just in the process of redoing my freebie. So there will be more geared towards choice for rebellion and pleasure activism so that that's something that folks can get on my website. By the time this comes out. Awesome.
Katie Graham
I love it. And yeah, your book, I will put all that your book and all your information in the show notes so they can contact you like your website, check out your book. I am personally so excited to read your book, like, beyond excited. Awesome. And, you know, I do think there's something to be said about, like, pleasure. Like, I don't think about that. When it comes to my wellness, I think about what is there the to do list and what's the exercise and What time am I going to yoga class and, you know, it's like, oh, that sounds so nice. And so thank you for bringing that in as a practice and, and I'm definitely really excited to read the book. So I invite the listeners if what Nisha is talking about if it resonates if you're more curious, like definitely the book and then also Her website is amazing. So yeah, definitely check her out. Nisha, thank you so much for joining us today.
Nischa Phair
Thank you. It was lovely. Thanks so much.
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